# هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟



## apostle.paul (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*يستمر زميلنا العزيز 
المدعو معاذ 
فى تدليسات ورا تدلسيات 

والسؤال الذى قدمه لنا 
**هل امن بولس الرسول بان المسيح هو الخالق؟
والاجابة الذى سنثبتها علميا واكاديميا

ان بولس امن بان يسوع المسيح هو
1-خالق الاكوان
2-هو يهوه اله اسرائيل
2-هو الوهيم القدير
*​


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## apostle.paul (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*يقول
*


> *حقيقة يحاول النصارى في هذه الأيام أن يثبتوا                                  لاهوت المسيح ويضللوا البعض من البسطاء بكلمة                                  قالها بولس عندما قال : (فإنه                                  فيه خلق الكل: ما في السماوات وما على الأرض، ما                                  يرى وما لا يرى، سواء كان عروشا ام سيادات ام                                  رياسات ام سلاطين. الكل                                  به وله قد خلق.                                  )
> 
> ويتمسكون بحرفية النص ويقولون بأن النص يقول (                                  الكل به وله قد خُلق ) بل ويصل الأمر أن يقولوا أن                                  المقصود هنا أن المسيح خالق ..!!*


*حقيقة u.d.n
ان النصارى ولوا وانتهوا  من قرون
وحقيقة يا عزيزى بان النصارى هم المسلمين المؤمنين بهرطقات النصرانية بين ضفتى القران الىل انت مؤمن بانه تنزيل جبريلى *
*وحقيقة يا عزيزى بان المسيحية  لا تحتاج الى تضليل ولا تدليس كما تفعل
فنحن مؤمنين بالحق المطلق الذى هو يسوع المسيح كلمة الاب الازلى ولا غيره 
المسيحين الذين شهد لهم اعدائهم قبل معتنقيها ان قوة حجة المسيحين هى التى وقفت ضد فكر الوثنين *
*المهم لكى لا نطيل 

لنذهب لناقش لاهوت بولس الرسول علميا واكاديميا
النص كامل من رسالة كولوسى
**15 الَّذِي هُوَ صُورَةُ اللهِ غَيْرِ الْمَنْظُورِ، بِكْرُ كُلِّ خَلِيقَةٍ.*
*16 فَإِنَّهُ فِيهِ خُلِقَ  الْكُلُّ: مَا في السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا عَلَى الأَرْضِ، مَا يُرَى وَمَا  لاَ يُرَى، سَوَاءٌ كَانَ عُرُوشًا أَمْ سِيَادَاتٍ أَمْ رِيَاسَاتٍ أَمْ  سَلاَطِينَ. الْكُلُّ بِهِ وَلَهُ قَدْ خُلِقَ.*
*17 الَّذِي هُوَ قَبْلَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ، وَفِيهِ يَقُومُ الْكُلُّ*
*18 وَهُوَ رَأْسُ الْجَسَدِ: الْكَنِيسَةِ. الَّذِي هُوَ الْبَدَاءَةُ، بِكْرٌ مِنَ الأَمْوَاتِ، لِكَيْ يَكُونَ هُوَ مُتَقَدِّمًا فِي كُلِّ شَيْءٍ.*
*19 لأَنَّهُ فِيهِ سُرَّ أَنْ يَحِلَّ كُلُّ الْمِلْءِ،*
*هذه** الترنيمة هى اقدم ترنيمة وليتورجية ترنمت بيها كنيسة المسيح لتمجيد المسيح الاله المتانس*
*This early Christian hymn emphasizes the superiority of Christ over all creation.* 
*Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary (Col 1:16). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers*.
​ 
*وحقيقاً احبائى فى المسيح هذا النص وحده كفيل بان يقدم المسيا فى فكر بولس بانه هو نفسه الخالق اله اسرائيل
كما سنثبت
لكن قبلا يقول 
*


> *ولكني أريد أن أسئل صديقي المسيحي النص يقول الكل                                  به فهل خُلق بالمسيح أم هو الخالق؟ *


*الاتنين
الكل به قد خلق لانه هو الكلمة وحكمة الله الذى به كان كل شئ
فبالكلمة خلق الله كل شئ
وهو نفسه الخالق لان الكلمة هو نفسه الله
ولا انت  اريوسى مؤمن بان الله يخلق مخلوقا لكى يخلق بيه الخليقة؟؟؟؟؟؟
ودعونا نثبت
اولا اقوال العلماء 
اولا فى مجتمع كولوسى ظهرت بعضت الافكار الغنوصية التى كانت تنادى بان المسيح كاحد الملائكة المخلوقين وبيه خلق الاله العالم المادى الشرير 
نفس الفكرة الىل بينادى بيها هذا السلفى الكافر الغنوصى
وكتب بولس الرسول هذة الترنيمة كضد لفكر الغنوصيين الكفرة
**This idea is in direct contradiction to the false teaching, later known as Gnosticism, that was developing in the Colossian church. In general, Gnostics believed that various angelic beings were the creators of the earth and that Christ was one among many of these angels. *
*Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary (Col 1:16). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers*.
​ 
*لكن الرسول بولس نقض هذة الفكر الهرطوقى واكد على ان المسيا الذى فيه كل حل كل ملء لاهوت الله هو بنفسه خالق كل الخليقة
**all things were created through Him and for Him: Not only did Jesus create all things; everything was created for His purposes (Heb. 1:2, where Christ is said to be the “heir of all things”). But the glory of the earth, the heavens, or the sun, moon, and stars cannot be compared with the glory of His new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). *
*Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary (Col 1:16). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers*.
​ 
*ولنذهب الى مرجع اخر*
*False teachers use verse 15 (especially in the ﻿KJV﻿) to teach that the Lord Jesus was a created being. Error can usually be refuted from the very passage of ******ure which the cultists use. That is the case here. Verse 16 states conclusively that the Lord Jesus is not a creature, but the very Creator. In this verse we learn that all things—the whole universe of things—were created not only by Him but through Him and for Him. Each of these prepositions conveys a different thought. First of all, we read that by Him all things were created. Here the thought is that the power to create was in His Being. He was the Architect. Later in the verse we learn that all things were created through Him. This speaks of Him as the Agent in creation. He was the Person of the Godhead through whom the creative act was performed. Also, all things were created for Him. He is the One for whom all things were created, the goal of creation.*

*Paul goes to great lengths to emphasize that all things were created through Christ, whether things in heaven, or things on earth. This leaves no loopholes for anyone to suggest that although He created some things, He Himself was created originally.*​
*KJV King James Version*

*MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary  : Old and New Testaments (Col 1:16). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.
​ 

*تحليل يونانى للعدد*
*For by him were all things created. Three prepositions tell the story: (1) In Him, sovereign source; (2) by Him, divine agent; (3) unto Him, for His use and for His glory. The first word created (Gr ktizō) is in the Greek aorist tense and views creation as a definite, historical act. Creation is a past, perfect work. The second word created is in the Greek perfect tense and speaks of the resulting state. Creation stands created, a permanent work. We have a Christo-centric universe, and this is complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy. *
*KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994 (2457). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.
​ *مرجع اخر يؤكد نفس ما قولناه*
*The terms “thrones,” “dominions,” “principalities,” and “powers” are often taken to refer to hierarchies or ranks of angelic beings. The Gnostics believed in a series of emanations (lesser spirits or aeons) proceeding from God, who was conceived as pure, absolute spirit. In the fully developed Gnostic systems of the second century a.d., as many as 40 emanations served to separate God from any taint of contact with the world, which was seen as evil matter. The most inferior emanation was the demiourgos (Gk.) or the creator of the world. Here Paul rightly elevates Christ as Creator, coeternal with the Father, above even the highest orders of heaven and earth. He is not one of the emanations, lesser spirits, or angels, as the Gnostics held, but is God incarnate* 
*Believer's Study Bible. 1997, c1995. C1991 Criswell Center for Biblical Studies. (electronic ed.) (Col 1:16). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.
​ 
*ادم كلارك(ركز اوى)*
*For by him were all things created, etc.]  These two verses contain parts of the same subject.  I shall endeavour to distinguish the statements of the apostle, and reason from them in such a way as the premises shall appear to justify, without appealing to any other ******ure in proof of the doctrine which I suppose these verses to vindicate.*

*Four things are here asserted: 1. That Jesus Christ is the Creator of the universe; of all things visible and invisible; of all things that had a beginning, whether they exist in time or in eternity.  2. That whatsoever was created was created for himself; that he was the sole end of his own work.  3. That he was prior to all creation, to all beings, whether in the visible or invisible world.  4. That he is the preserver and governor of all things; for by him all things consist.*

*Now, allowing St. Paul to have understood the terms which he used, he must have considered Jesus Christ as being truly and properly God.*​
*Clarke, A. (1999). Clarke's Commentary: Colossians (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Clarke's Commentaries (Col 1:16). Albany, OR: Ages Software*.
​ *مرجع اخر 
* *by him all things were created. Jesus did not come into existence when he was born of the virgin Mary. He was the agent of creation through whom God made heaven and earth (John 1:3 and note; 1 Cor. 8:6). Jesus cannot be the first thing created (as the ancient Arian heresy claimed) since “all things” without exception were created by him. thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. Paul is using the current Jewish terms for various rankings of angels (although he doesn’t explain their relative ranks). His emphasis here may be on the evil angels, since they play a significant part in this letter (Col. 2:8, 10, 15, 20). This would not mean, however, that Jesus created evil angels; all spiritual powers were created by Jesus, but some later chose to rebel against God and so to become evil. Jesus is not only the agent of creation but is also the goal of creation, for everything was created by him and for him, that is, for his honor and praise. Since Jesus is in this sense the goal of creation, he must be fully God* 
*Crossway Bibles. (2008). The ESV Study Bible (2294). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles*.
​ .
*اقوال اباء الكنيسة
القديس ايريناؤس
**All things were made through him and without him was made not a thing.”﻿48﻿ From this “all” nothing is exempt. Now, it is the Father who made all things through him, whether visible or invisible, whether sensible or intelligible, whether temporal for the sake of some dispensation or eternal. These he did not make through angels or some powers that were separated from his thought. Against the Heresies 1.22.1.* 
*48 48 Jn 1:3.*

*Gorday, P. (2000). Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (14). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press*.
​ * العلامة اوريجانوس*
*Now that we have briefly repeated our account of the Trinity, we must go on in the same way to remind the reader that through the Son “all things” are said to be “created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers—all things were created through him and in him he is before all things; in him who is the head all things hold together.” The “all things” includes the various supernatural powers that are specified in the remainder of the verse. Paul insists these are subordinate to Christ’s power and authority* 
*Gorday, P. (2000). Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press

**القديس كيرلس الاوشليمى*
*Therefore Christ is the Only-begotten Son of God and Maker of the World, for “he was in the world, and the world was made through him,”﻿51﻿ and “he came unto his own,”﻿52﻿ as the Gospel teaches us. But Christ is the Maker, at the bidding of the Father, not only of things visible but also things invisible. For, according to the apostle: “In him were created all things in the heavens or on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things have been created through him and unto him, and he is before all creatures, and in him all things hold together.” Though you mention the worlds, Jesus Christ, at the bidding of the Father, is Maker of these too* 
*51 51 Jn 1:10.*

*52 52 Jn 1:11.*

*Gorday, P. (2000). Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press*.
​ ​.
​ *العظيم بين خلفاء مارمرقس بابا الاسكندرية وبطل الارثوذكسية البابا اثناسيوس الرسولى*
*For the Word of God was not made for us but rather we for him, and “in him all things were created.” For even if it had seemed good to God not to make things of determinate origin, still the Word would have been no less with God, and the Father in him. At the same time, things of determinate origin could not without the Word be brought to be; hence they were made through him—and with meaning and purpose. For since the Word is the Son of God by nature proper to his essence and is from him, as he said himself, the creatures could not have come to be, except through him. Discourses Against the Arians 2.18.31.﻿ *
*Gorday, P. (2000). Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press*.
​ *القديس يوحنا فم الذهب*
*All things,” he says, “have been created through him, and to him.” Indeed, “in him” is “through him,” for having said “in him,” Paul added, “through him.” But what does “to him” mean? It is this: the subsistence of all things depends on him. Homilies on Colossians 3.﻿* 
*Gorday, P. (2000). Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press*.
​ *امبروسيوس**
**So then, he himself who calls the Son of God the maker even of heavenly things has also plainly said that all things were made in the Son, that in the renewal of his works he might by no means separate the Son from the Father but unite him to the Father. Paul, too, says: “For in him were all things created in the heavens and in the earth, visible and invisible.” Of the Holy Spirit 3.11.83–84.﻿56 *
*56 56 ﻿NPNF﻿ 2 10:147.*

*Gorday, P. (2000). Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press

**اثناسيوس الغرب هيلارى اسقف بواتيه*
*There is no doubt that all things are through the Son, since, according to the apostle, “All things are through him and in him.” If all things are through him, and all things are from nothing, and nothing is except through him, I ask in what way does he lack the true nature of God, since he is not lacking either in the nature or the power of God? For he used the power of his nature that these things should exist which had no existence, and that these things should exist which pleased him. On the Trinity 5.4. *
*Gorday, P. (2000). Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (16). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press*.
​ ​.
​
*
تاخذ افكار الغنوصيين الذين ادعوا بان المسيح مخلوق قد خلقه الاله ليخلق العالم لكى لا يتعامل مع المادة
تاخذ افكار اريوس وتتدعى ان هناك الها مخلوقا خلق الخليقة غير الاله الواحد

فنحن نعبد الها واحدا
حكمته وكلمته الازلي كائن بذاته


يسوع هو الكلمة والحكمة الازلى
ملء لاهوت الله
والمساو لله
الكائن فى حضن الاب
الكائن قبل كل الدهور والازمنة
الذى بيه قد خلق الله العالمين 
كما قال العظيم بين رسول المسيح فى العبرانين
**1 اَللهُ، بَعْدَ مَا كَلَّمَ الآبَاءَ بِالأَنْبِيَاءِ قَدِيمًا، بِأَنْوَاعٍ وَطُرُق كَثِيرَةٍ،
2 كَلَّمَنَا فِي هذِهِ الأَيَّامِ الأَخِيرَةِ فِي ابْنِهِ، الَّذِي جَعَلَهُ وَارِثًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ، الَّذِي بِهِ أَيْضًا عَمِلَ الْعَالَمِينَ،
كما قال القديس ثيؤدوريت
**He spoke of the Son as “creator of the ages”34 to bring out that he is eternal and to teach us that he was always beyond any temporal interval whatsoever. In these terms the Old Testament speaks of the God and Father as the one existing before the ages, that is, the one who always is. *
*34 Literal translation of tous aiōnas is “the ages.” The rsv translates this phrase as “the world.”*

*Heen, E. M., & Krey, P. D. W. (2005). Hebrews. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 10 (7). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press*.
​ *يتبع
باثبات ان الابن هو يهوه*​


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## apostle.paul (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*يسوع المسيح هو يهوه
**بعد ان ناقشنا ان الابن هو الخالق الذى هو الاله الحق ولا غيره
سوف نناقش ان الابن هو نفسه يهوه ومن فكر بولس نفسه 
**8 وَأَمَّا عَنْ الابْنِ: «كُرْسِيُّكَ يَا أَللهُ إِلَى دَهْرِ الدُّهُورِ. قَضِيبُ اسْتِقَامَةٍ قَضِيبُ مُلْكِكَ.*
*9 أَحْبَبْتَ الْبِرَّ وَأَبْغَضْتَ الإِثْمَ. مِنْ أَجْلِ ذلِكَ   مَسَحَكَ اللهُ إِلهُكَ بِزَيْتِ الابْتِهَاجِ أَكْثَرَ مِنْ شُرَكَائِكَ».*
*10 وَ «أَنْتَ يَا رَبُّ فِي الْبَدْءِ أَسَّسْتَ الأَرْضَ، وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ هِيَ عَمَلُ يَدَيْكَ.*
*11 هِيَ تَبِيدُ وَلكِنْ أَنْتَ تَبْقَى، وَكُلُّهَا كَثَوْبٍ تَبْلَى،*
*12 وَكَرِدَاءٍ تَطْوِيهَا فَتَتَغَيَّرُ. وَلكِنْ أَنْتَ أَنْتَ، وَسِنُوكَ لَنْ تَفْنَى*
*فى العددين 8 و9 يقتبس بولس الرسول من المزمور 45 لكى يطبق هذا على المسيا الممسوح من قبل الله الاب واعطاه لقب الوهيم 
وفى الاعداد 10-12
تكلم عن الابن باعتباره يهوه خالق جميع الاشياء
كما تعودنا اولا بنثبت النص نقديا وانه ثابت ولا غبار عليه
وبعدين نناقشه لاهوتيا
النص من نسخة UBS النقدية
ثانيا ولا غبار شبهه نصية عليه
* 
*10 καί,*


* Σὺ κατ᾽ ἀρχάς, κύριε, τὴν γῆν ἐθεμελίωσας,*


* καὶ ἔργα τῶν χειρῶν σού εἰσιν οἱ οὐρανοί·*


*11     αὐτοὶ ἀπολοῦνται, σὺ δὲ διαμένεις,*


* καὶ πάντες ὡς ἱμάτιον παλαιωθήσονται,*


*12 καὶ ὡσεὶ περιβόλαιον ἑλίξεις﻿3αὐτούς,*


*  ὡς ἱμάτιον καὶ﻿4ἀλλαγήσονται·*


* σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εἶ*


* καὶ τὰ ἔτη σου οὐκ ἐκλείψουσιν.*


*13 πρὸς τίνα δὲ τῶν ἀγγέλων εἴρηκέν ποτε,*


* Κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου,*


* ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου;f*


*12̠10-12 Σὺ … ἐκλείψουσινPs 102.25-27* 
*﻿3̠3 12 {A} ἑλίξεις(or εἱλίξεις) P46 א2 A B D2 Ψ 075 0150 0243 6 33 81 104 256 263 365 424 436 459 1175 1241 1319 1573 1739 1852 1881 1912 1962 2127 2200 2464 Byz [K L P] Lect itar, b, v vgst syrp, h, pal arm eth geo slav Chrysostom Cyril // ἀλλάξεις(see Ps 101.27 lxx) א* D* itcomp, d, t vgcl, ww Athanasius* 
*﻿4̠4 12 {B} ὡς ἱμάτιον καίP46 א A B (D* omit καί) 1739 (itd) vgmss (syrpalms) copfay arm // καί(see Ps 101.27 lxx) D2 Ψ 075 0150 0243 6 33 81 104 256 263 365 424 436 459 1175 1241 1319 1573 1852 1881 1912 1962 2127 2200 2464 Byz [K L P] Lect itar, b, comp, t, v vg syr(p), h, (palms) copsa, bo eth geo slav Athanasius Chrysostom Cyril* 
*13̠13 Κάθου … ποδῶν σουPs 110.1* 
*f̠f 13 P: TEV Seg NJB TOB* 
*Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., Wikgren, A., Aland, B., & Karavidopoulos, J. (2000; 2009). The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with apparatus); The Greek New Testament, 4th Revised Edition (with apparatus) (Heb 1:10-13). Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft; Stuttgart

**صور بعض المخطوطات
البردية 46 اقدم بردية لرسالة العبرانين
وفيها العدد وعلمت على كلمة كاى(و)بداية العدد العاشر وكلمة كريوس(اختصار).*​





*المخطوطة الفاتيكانية*




*السينائية*




*السكندرية




**وهذا الاقتباس الذى اقتبسه بولس الرسول هو من مزمور 102
الذى فيه يسبح داود يهوه ويوجه له هذة الترنيمة
وقد وجه بولس الرسول نفس الترنيمة للمسيح باعتباره يهوه خالق الاكوان
**النص العبرى للمزمور*
*תְּפִלָּה לְעָנִי כִי־יַעֲטֹף וְלִפְנֵי יְהוָה יִשְׁפֹּךְ שִׂיחֹו׃ יְהוָה שִׁמְעָה תְפִלָּתִי וְשַׁוְעָתִי אֵלֶיךָ תָבֹוא׃*
*المسيا هو يهوه الخالق*​*اقوال العلماء*
*The quotations from Psalms continue (Ps 102:25–27). The Son as Creator is emphasized in these verses. As Creator, He possesses a superior position.  The realm of His creation that is stressed is the heavens, which by  metonymy could include the angels. The heavens will pass, but the Son  will stand. Thou art the same. All creation will change, but not the  Son. He is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever * 
*KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994 (2536). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.​ 
*
*
*1:10–12 The context of Ps. 102, from which these verses are taken, clearly indicates that the “Lord”  is the One who would appear in the future to Israel and the nations  (Ps. 102:12–16). Thus, the psalm can only refer to Jesus, the Second  Person of the Trinity, the only One who would become incarnate. Jesus is  God become man. The universe will perish (2 Pet. 3:10–13;  Rev. 21:1), but the Son will remain forever. The universe will be  changed, but the Son will remain the same (13:8). *
*Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary (Heb 1:10-12). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers*.​ .

*1:10 The Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator of heaven and earth. This is demonstrated from Psalm 102:25–27. In that psalm, the Messiah prays, “O my God … do not take me away” (v. 24).  This prayer at Gethsemane and Calvary is answered by God the Father,  “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the  work of Your hands.”*
*It  should be noticed that God here in verse 10 addresses His Son as Lord,  that is Jehovah. The conclusion is inescapable: the Jesus of the ﻿NT﻿ is the Jehovah of the Old.*​ *NT New Testament*

*MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary  : Old and New Testaments (Heb 1:10). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.




*﻿**Verse 10**﻿.  **And, Thou, Lord]  This is an address to the Son as the Creator, see ﻿Heb 1:2﻿; for this is implied in laying the foundation of the earth.  The heavens, which are the work of his hands, point out his infinite wisdom and skill. * *Clarke, A. (1999). Clarke's Commentary: Hebrews (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Clarke's Commentaries (Heb 1:10). Albany, OR: Ages Software



يسوع المسيح هو يهوه اله اسرائيل
**the Jesus of the ﻿NT﻿ is the Jehovah of the Old*
.​


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## apostle.paul (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*يسوع المسيح هو الوهيم اله اسرائيل القدير*
* سفر العبرانين الاصحاح الاول يقول الرسول بولس عن شخص الابن انه هو نفسه شخص الله(الوهيم)
**8 وَأَمَّا عَنْ الابْنِ: «كُرْسِيُّكَ يَا أَللهُ إِلَى دَهْرِ الدُّهُورِ. قَضِيبُ اسْتِقَامَةٍ قَضِيبُ مُلْكِكَ.*
*9 أَحْبَبْتَ الْبِرَّ وَأَبْغَضْتَ الإِثْمَ. مِنْ أَجْلِ ذلِكَ   مَسَحَكَ اللهُ إِلهُكَ بِزَيْتِ الابْتِهَاجِ أَكْثَرَ مِنْ شُرَكَائِكَ*
*النص من نسخة ubs اشهر النسخ النقدية للعهد الجديد بالشواهد النصية عليه
للتاكيد على ثبات العدد فى كل مصادر العهد الجديد
* 
*8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν,*


* Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος,*


* καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου﻿2.*


*9 ἠγάπησας δικαιοσύνην καὶ ἐμίσησας ἀνομίαν·*


* διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέν σε﻿cὁ θεὸς﻿dὁ θεός σου﻿e*


* ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου.*


*﻿2̠2 8 {B} σου(see Ps 45.7) A D Ψ 075 0150 0243 6 33 81 104 256 263 365 424 436 459 1175 1241 1319 1739 1852 1881 1912 1962 2127 2200 2464 Byz [K L P] Lect itar, b, comp, d, t, v vg syrp, h, palms copsa, bo, fay arm eth geo slav Gregory-Nyssa Chrysostom Cyril Theodoret; Jerome // αὐτοῦP46 א B // omit 1573 syrpalms* 
*9̠8-9 Ὁ θρόνος … μετόχους σουPs 45.6-7* 
*﻿c̠c 9 C: AD M Seg Lu TOB REB ‖* 
*﻿d̠d C: TR WH AD M RSV TEV Seg FC NIV VP Lu NJB TOB REB REBmg NRSV ‖* 
*﻿e̠e C: TR WH RSV TEV FC NIV VP NJB REBmg NRSV* 
*Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., Wikgren, A., Aland, B., & Karavidopoulos, J. (2000; 2009). The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with apparatus); The Greek New Testament, 4th Revised Edition (with apparatus) (Heb 1:8-9). Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft; Stuttgart*.​ *ورجوعا للنص العبرى لسفر المزامير نجد ان المزمور هنا يخاطب الممسوح بانه الوهيم*
*כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים עֹולָם וָעֶד שֵׁבֶט מִישֹׁר שֵׁבֶט מַלְכוּתֶךָ׃*
 *بعض صور المخطوطات*
* السينائية*




*الفاتيكانية*




*المخطوطة السكندرية*




*اقدم بردية لرسالة العبرانين
بترجع لاواخر القرن الاول حسب احدث الدراسات الباليوغرافية
بردية 46
*



​




​

* صورة العدد من المخطوطة




*​ *اقوال الاباء
يوحنا الدمشقى*

*It is when the Word was  made flesh that we say he received the name of Christ Jesus. Since he  was anointed with the oil of gladness﻿37—that  is to say, anointed with the Spirit by God the Father—he is called  Christ, or Anointed. That the anointing was of the humanity no  right-minded person would doubt. And the renowned Athanasius says to  this effect, somewhere in his discourse, on the saving coming of Christ,  “God (the Word), as existing before coming to dwell in the flesh, was  not man but God with God, being invisible and impassible. But when he  became man, he took the name Christ, because the passion and death are  consequent upon this name.”38*


*Now, even though sacred ******ure does say, “Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness,”  one must know that sacred ******ure frequently uses the past tense for  the future. [It says,] for example, “Afterwards, he appeared upon earth  and lived among men,”39  for God had not yet been seen by humanity nor had conversed with them  when this was said. And again, “By the waters of Babylon, there we sat  down and wept,”40 for these things had not yet taken place. Orthodox Faith 4.6.﻿41*


*﻿37 See Ps 45:7 (44:8 lxx).* 
*38 Athanasius Against Apollinaris 2.1–2.* 
*39 Bar 3:37 (3:38 lxx). rsv uses “she,” meaning Wisdom.* 
*40 Ps 137:1 (136:1 lxx).* 
*﻿41 FC 37:340–41*.* 
*Heen, E. M., & Krey, P. D. W. (2005). Hebrews. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 10 (25). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press*.​ *يوسابيوس القيصرى*

*It was not only those  that were honored with the high priesthood and anointed for the sake of  the symbol with prepared oil who were given tribute among the Hebrews  with the name Christ. The kings too, at the bidding of God, were made  Christs in a certain symbolism by the prophets who anointed them,  inasmuch as they also bore in themselves the types of the royal and  sovereign power of the only true Christ, the divine Logos who reigns  over all. We have also received the tradition that some of the prophets  themselves had by anointing already become Christs in type, seeing that  they all refer to the true Christ—the divine and heavenly Logos, of the  world the only high priest, of all creation the only king, of the  prophets the only archprophet of the Father. The proof of this is that  no one of those symbolically anointed of old, whether priests or kings  or prophets, obtained such power of the divine virtue as our Savior and  Lord, Jesus, the only real Christ, has exhibited. None indeed of them,  though renowned in rank and honor for so many generations among their  own people, ever gave the name of Christian to their subjects from the  symbolic application to themselves of the name of Christ. The honor of  worship was not paid to any of them by their subjects, nor did they hold  them in such affection after their death as to be ready to die for him  whom they honored.*


*For none of the men of those days was  there such disturbance of all the nations throughout all the world,  since the power of the symbol was incapable of producing such an effect  among them as the presence of the reality manifested by our Savior; for  he received from none the symbol and types of the high priesthood. Nor  did he trace his physical descent from the race of priests; nor was he  promoted to a kingdom by the armed force of men; nor did he become a  prophet in the same way as those of old; nor did he hold any rank at all  or precedence among the Jews. Yet with all these he had been adorned,  not in symbols, but in actual reality by the Father. Though he did not  obtain the honors of which we have spoken before, he is called Christ  more than any of them, and inasmuch as he is himself the only true  Christ of God, he filled the whole world with Christians—his truly  revered and sacred name. He no longer gave to his initiates types or  images but the uncovered virtues themselves and the heavenly life in the  actual doctrines of truth, and he has received the chrism—not that  which is prepared materially, but the divine anointing itself with the  spirit of God, by sharing in the unbegotten divinity of the Father.  Again, Isaiah teaches this very point, for in one place he exclaims as  if from Christ himself, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he  has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, to proclaim release to  the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind.”42*


*And not only Isaiah but also David speaks with reference to him and says, “Your divine throne endures for ever and ever.  Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and  hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil  of gladness above your fellows.”43  In this the text calls him God in the first verse, and in the second  honors him with the royal scepter, and then goes on, after royal and  divine power, to present him in the third place as having become Christ,  anointed not with oil made of material substances but with the divine  “oil of gladness.”*


*And in addition to this he indicates his  peculiar distinction and superiority to those who in the past had been  more materially anointed as types. And in another place too the same  David explains his position as follows: “The Lord says to my Lord, ‘Sit  at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.’ ”44  And “before the day-star I begot you from the womb. The Lord swore and  will not repent, You are a priest forever according to the order of  Melchizedek.”45  Now this Melchizedek is introduced in the sacred books as priest of the  most high God, without having been so marked out by any material  unction, or even as belonging by racial descent to the priesthood of the  Hebrews. For this reason our Savior has been called Christ and priest,  on the authority of an oath, according to this order and not according  to that of the others who received symbols and types. For this reason  too the narrative does not relate that he was anointed physically by the  Jews or even that he was of the tribe of those who hold the priesthood,  but that he received his being from God himself before the day-star,  that is to say, before the construction of the world, and holds his  priesthood to boundless eternity, ageless and immortal. A weighty and  clear proof of the immaterial and divine anointing effected on him is  that he alone, out of all who have ever yet been until now, is called  Christ among all men throughout the whole world. Under this title he is  confessed and borne witness to by all and is mentioned thus by Jews,  Greeks, and barbarians. Until this present day he is honored by his  worshipers throughout the world as king, wondered at more than a  prophet, and glorified as the true and only high priest of God, and  above all, as the Logos of God, preexistent, having his being before all  ages and having received the right of reverence from the Father, and he  is worshiped as God. Strangest of all, we, who have been consecrated to  him, honor him not only with our voices and with the sound of words but  with the whole disposition of our soul, so as to value testimony to him  more than our very life itself. Ecclesiastical History 1.3.﻿46*


*42 Lk 4:18; cf. Is 61:1.* 
*43 Ps 45:6–7 (44:7–8 lxx).* 
*44 Ps 110:1 (109:1 lxx).* 
*45 Ps 110:3–4 (109:3–4 lxx); cf. Heb 5:5–6.* 
*﻿46 LCL 153:31–35.* 
*Heen, E. M., & Krey, P. D. W. (2005). Hebrews. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 10 (25). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press
*.​ *اقوال العلماء*

*1:8  O God: Jesus Christ is accorded the rank of full deity. The Son has an  eternal throne, which means He possesses an eternal kingdom. *
*Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary (Heb 1:8). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers*.​ 

*8–9. The author continues to quote from the Psalms (45:6–7) to reveal the superior nature of the Son. He is declared to be God Himself, * 
*KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994 (2536). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.​ 

*1:8 Now follows a galaxy of glories in which the Son is seen to be incomparable. First He is addressed by God as God. In Psalm 45:6 God the Father hails the Messiah with the words, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” Here again the deity of Christ is unmistakable, and the argument comes from the traditional Hebrew text. (There is at least one quotation from the ﻿OT﻿ in every chapter of Hebrews.) *
*OT Old Testament* 
*MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary  : Old and New Testaments (Heb 1:8). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.​ 

*وللتاكيد ان هذا المزمور مزمور مسيانى ينطبق على المسيا ابن العلى*

*﻿Verse 8﻿.  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever]  If this be said of the Son of God, i.e. Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ must be God; and indeed the design of the apostle is to prove this. The words here quoted are taken from ﻿Ps 45:6﻿, ﻿7﻿, which  the ancient Chaldee paraphrast, and the most intelligent rabbins, refer  to the Messiah.  On the third verse of this Psalm, Thou art fairer than the children of men, the Targum says: "Thy beauty, מלכא משיצא malca Meshicha, O King Messiah, is greater than the children of men."  Aben Ezra says: "This Psalm speaks of David, or rather of his son, the Messiah, for this is his name," ﻿Eze 34:24﻿: And David my servant shall be a Prince over them for ever. Other rabbins confirm this opinion.*​*وردا على ترجمة شهود يهوه المدلسين 
اللى ترجموها الله عرشك*
*This verse is very  properly considered a proof, and indeed a strong one, of the Divinity of  Christ; but some late versions of the New Testament have endeavoured to  avoid the evidence of this proof by translating the words thus: God is thy throne for ever and ever; and if this version be correct, it is certain the text can be no proof of the doctrine.  Mr. Wakefield vindicates this translation at large in his History of Opinions; and ο θεος, being the nominative case, is supposed to be a sufficient justification of this version.  In answer to this it may be stated that the nominative case is often used for the vocative,  particularly by the Attics; and the whole scope of the place requires  it should be so used here; and, with due deference to all of a contrary  opinion, the original Hebrew cannot be consistently translated any other  way, כאֹך אלהים עולם ועד kisaca Elohim olam vaed, Thy throne, O God, is for ever, and to eternity.   It is in both worlds; and extends over all time; and will exist  through all endless duration.  To this our Lord seems to refer, ﻿Mt  28:18﻿: All power is given unto me, both in heaven and earth.  My throne, i.e. my dominion,  extends from the creation to the consummation of all things.  These I  have made, and these I uphold; and from the end of the world, throughout  eternity, I shall have the same glory-sovereign, unlimited power and  authority, which I had with the Father before the world began; ﻿Joh  17:5﻿.  I may add that none of the ancient versions has understood it in  the way contended for by those who deny the Godhead of Christ, either  in the Psalm from which it is taken, or in this place where it is  quoted.  Aquila translates אלהים Elohim, by θεε, O God, in the vocative case; and the Arabic adds the sign of the vocative [Arabic] ya, reading the place thus: [Arabic] korsee yallaho ila abadilabada, the same as in our version.  And even allowing that ο θεος here is to be used as the nominative case, it will not make the sense contended for, without adding εστι to it, a reading which is not countenanced by any version, nor by any MS.*


*Clarke, A. (1999). Clarke's Commentary: Hebrews (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Clarke's Commentaries (Heb 1:8). Albany, OR: Ages Software*.​ 

*وايضا*

*8. πρὸς δέ ...] in reference to … The words in the Psalm are not addressed directly to the Son, though they point to Him.*
*ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεός ... διὰ τοῦτο ... ὁ θεός, ὁ θεός σου ...]  It is not necessary to discuss here in detail the construction of the  original words of the Psalm. The LXX. admits of two renderings: ὁ θεός can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, … therefore, O God, Thy God …) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God …), and in apposition to ὁ θεός σου in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God …). The only important variation noted in the other Greek versions is that of Aquila, who gave the vocative θεέ in the first clause (Hieron. Ep. 65. ad Princ. § 13) and, as it appears, also in the second (Field, Hexapla ad loc.). It is scarcely possible that אלוהים in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that ὁ θεός is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock’; and to take ὁ θεός as in apposition in the second clause.*
*The phrase ‘God is Thy throne’ is not indeed found elsewhere, but it is in no way more strange than Ps. 71:3 [Lord] be Thou to me a rock of habitation … Thou art my rock and my fortress. Is. 26:4 (R.V.) In the Lord Jehovah is an everlasting rock. Ps. 90:1 Lord, Thou hast been our dwelling-place. Ps. 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High … v. 2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress, v. 9; Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy dwelling-place. Comp. Is. 22:23.*
*For the general thought compare Zech. 12:8. This interpretation is required if we adopt the reading αὐτοῦ for σου.*
*It is commonly supposed that the force of the quotation lies in the divine title (ὁ θεός) which, as it is held, is applied to the Son.  It seems however from the whole form of the argument to lie rather in  the de******ion which is given of the Son’s office and endowment. The  angels are subject to constant change, He has a dominion for ever and  ever; they work through material powers, He—the Incarnate Son—fulfils a  moral sovereignty and is crowned with unique joy. Nor could the reader  forget the later teaching of the Psalm on the Royal Bride and the Royal  Race. In whatever way then ὁ θεός be taken,  the quotation establishes the conclusion which the writer wishes to draw  as to the essential difference of the Son and the angels. Indeed it  might appear to many that the direct application of the divine Name to  the Son would obscure the thought.*
*The Epistle to the Hebrews the Greek text with notes and essays. 1920 [c1903. "Third [edition] 1903; reprinted 1906, 1909, 1914, 1920." (B. F. Westcott, Ed.) (3d ed.) (25). London: Macmillan*.


*وفى هذا النص اثبتنا ان الرسول بولس اقتبس من سفر المزامير بان المسيا الممسوح من الله الاب هو نفسه الوهيم اله اسرائيل 
المسيح هو الوهيم
وللعلم هذة الرسالة كتبت فى زمن متقدم جدا 
فى ستينات القرن الاول
وحتى قبل كتابة بعض الاناجيل
ليؤكد لنا ان الكنيسة الاولى ترسخت فى مفهومها بان يسوع المسيح هو اله العهد القديم
تفسير رسالة العبرانين الدكتور موريس تاوضروس
*


​


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## apostle.paul (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*بعض التعليقات 
*


> *خطأ لاهوتي . !*


*عيب كدا 
عيب لما تبقى جاهل كبييييييييييييير و وتقول خطا لاهوتى
*


> *حقيقة نعلم أن بولس لم يدعى ابداً لاهوت المسيح                                  ولا التثليث ولم يدعى إلى عبادة المسيح *


*
كيف هذا ياعزيزى 
تعالى نعمل تحليل شامل لفكر بولس الرسول اللاهوتى
1-المسيا هو المساو لله فى فكر بولس(وسنناقشها فى موضوع منفصل)
**6 الَّذِي إِذْ كَانَ فِي صُورَةِ اللهِ، لَمْ يَحْسِبْ خُلْسَةً أَنْ يَكُونَ مُعَادِلاً للهِ.
7 لكِنَّهُ أَخْلَى نَفْسَهُ، آخِذًا صُورَةَ عَبْدٍ، صَائِرًا فِي شِبْهِ النَّاسِ.*
*2-المسيح هو يهوه الوهيم.......تم اثباتها
3-المسيح المعبود فى فكر بولس
** وَأَيْضًا مَتَى أَدْخَلَ الْبِكْرَ إِلَى الْعَالَمِ يَقُولُ: «وَلْتَسْجُدْ لَهُ كُلُّ مَلاَئِكَةِ اللهِ».*
*The angels will worship the Son when He is enthroned as the King over the entire earth (2:5–9), after taking revenge on His enemies and restoring His people *
*Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary (Heb 1:6). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers*.
​ 
*
**At that time He will be publicly worshiped by the angels. This can only mean that He is God. It is idolatry to worship any but the true God. Yet God here commands that the Lord Jesus Christ should be worshiped by the angels. *
*MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary  : Old and New Testaments (Heb 1:6). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.
​ 4*-الرسول بولس يستخدم البركة الرسولية
بركة الاب والابن والروح القدس
** نِعْمَةُ رَبِّنَا يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحِ، وَمَحَبَّةُ اللهِ، وَشَرِكَةُ الرُّوحِ الْقُدُسِ مَعَ جَمِيعِكُمْ. آمِينَ.*.

*The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. In his concluding benediction, Paul not only invokes the fullness of God’s provision on behalf of the Corinthian believers, but also in passing, provides one of the clearest expressions in the New Testament on the doctrine of the Trinity. The deity of the Son, of the Father, and of the Holy Spirit are affirmed by virtue of their relation to one another. The distinctive personality of each is implied by the independent activity denoted in the threefold operation of grace, love, and communion. *
*KJV Bible commentary. 1997, c1994 (2368). Nashville: Thomas Nelson*.
​ 


> *فلا يجوز أبداً ان أقول الله خُلق به ولكن أقول أن                                  الله خالق كل شيء
> فلو أخذنا النص بحرفيته هكذا لوجدنا أن المسيح                                  خُلق به أي كان أداة للخلق وهذا لا يجوز في حق                                  الإله .*


*المهم هذا الشخص
مؤمن بان الهه خلق كل شئ بكلمة كن
فهل هو خلق كلمته علشان يخلق الكون؟؟؟؟
روح كدا قول لشيخ كلمة الله اداة لخلق الكون وهذا غير واجب فى حق الاله شوف رد فعله
ياعزيزى الكلمة كائن فى ذات الله وليس غريبا عنه ولا مخلوقا
هو ليس اداة لانه ليس غريبا عن ذات الله يخلقه كى يخلق بيه
هو كائن فى ذاته ومن جنسه ومن طبيعته وبيه خلق الاب كل العالم
بالكلمة خلق الله كل شئ وبغير الكلمة لم يكن شئ مما كان 
وهو نفسه شخص الاله (وكان الكلمة الله)*


> *نقول أن الخلق المقصود به في النص هو خلق                                  الإيمان وليس الخلق الحقيقي*


*لنرى ماذا يقول
وماذا يقول النص

**فَإِنَّهُ  فِيهِ خُلِقَ  الْكُلُّ: مَا في السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا عَلَى الأَرْضِ، مَا  يُرَى وَمَا  لاَ يُرَى، سَوَاءٌ كَانَ عُرُوشًا أَمْ سِيَادَاتٍ أَمْ  رِيَاسَاتٍ أَمْ  سَلاَطِينَ. الْكُلُّ بِهِ وَلَهُ قَدْ خُلِقَ
وهنا انتهى الموضوع لانه كله مبنى الخطأ
فالنص يتكلم عن خلقة الخليقة وهذا  يقول هنا المقصود هو خلق الايمان 
ولكى تروا بانفسكم ان المسلم لا يقوى ان ينتقد حرف واحد فى الايمان المسيحى واخر ما يقدر ان يعمله هو كلام فارغ
يقول  
*


> *(قلبا نقيا اخلق فيّ يا                                  الله وروحا مستقيما جدّد في داخلي ) المزامير 51 /                                  10**
> فنجد أن النص هنا لا يتكلم عن الخلق الحقيقي وإنما                                  يتكلم عن خلق الإيمان والخلق الروحي.*


ولا اعلم ماعلاقة النصين ببعض
* ومين قال ان هنا لا يتكلم عن خلق حقيقى(النقاء من الفساد)
ومين قال ان خلق قلب جديد فى الانسان يقدر ان يقوم بيه اى كائن غير الله نفسه
اذا كان داود النبى يطلب هذا القلب الجديد من الله نفسه

لان اى خلقة جديدة تختص بالخالق والقادر على كل شئ
فهل مثلا يوجد نبى يقدر ان يعطينا قلبا جديدا؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
*


> *فالمسيح قد خُلق بواسطته ولكنه خلق الإيمان وخلق                                  الروح وليس الخلق الحقيقي ... !
> وأيضاً مما يؤكد الخلق الروحي أو خلق القداسة النص                                  الآتي:
> (وتلبسوا الانسان الجديد                                  المخلوق بحسب الله في البر وقداسة الحق )                                  الرسالة الى افسس4 / 24*


*المهم كل متجيب نص يكون الىل قام بيه الله
ماشى انا معاك ان المسيح يخلقنا روحيا ويجدد طبائعنا بروحه القدس
وهذة الخلقة الجديدة هو من صنع الله وليس غيره كما اثبت انت
لكن برضة دا ملوش علاقة بما يقوله بولس الرسول فى النص عن دور حكمة الله الازلى فى الخليقة كخالق للكل 

*


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## apostle.paul (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*تعليق اخير 
*

> *دعوة صريحة إلي عبادة من خلق السماء ورفض التجسد .                                  !!*


*عزيزى
نحن نعبد بالفعل من خلق السماء والارض وخلقنى وخلقك وخلق كل الخليقة 
يهوه القدير اله اسرائيل اله ابائنا القديسين اله ابراهيم واله اسحق واله يعقوب الكائن واجب الوجود الذى بكلمته الازلى خلق كل الخليقة واعطانا الحياة بروحه الازلى القدوس
الذى نتمنى ان تعرفه **
وللاسف انك تعبد اله متجسد فى ذاته فهو فى جوهره محدود 
* *امستوى على عرش(متجسد )وله يدان ورجلان وساق سيكشف عنه يوم القيامة وينزل كل يوم فى الربع الاخير من الليل للسماء الدنيا الذى راه رسولك فى صورة شاب امرد 
فهذا هو الهك الذى انت مؤمن بانه مستوى على عرش فى سدرة المنتهى وذهب اليه رسولك  ليكلمه فى السماء السابعة  
اما الهنا فيملا السماوات والارض وسماء السماوات لا تسعه ولا يحده مكان
فى جوهره لا يرى ولا يحد
ولكنه اظهر ذاته لنا فى شخص يسوع البار كلمته الازلى الذى صار فى الجسد
وهو لم يزل فى حضن ابيه مالء الكل بلا انتقاص من جوهره الالهى الكلى الوجود

  ............
انتهى
*​


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## The Antiochian (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*أستاااااااااذ ورئيس قسم ^__^*

*يوحنا 1 الأصحاح 4 العدد 4 أَنْتُمْ مِنَ اللهِ أَيُّهَا الأَوْلاَدُ، وَقَدْ غَلَبْتُمُوهُمْ لأَنَّ الَّذِي فِيكُمْ أَعْظَمُ مِنَ الَّذِي فِي الْعَالَمِ.*


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## jesus_son012 (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

فعلا رد روعة

:010104~171::010104~171:


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## Molka Molkan (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*روعة يا دكتور ،، 
*


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## MAJI (11 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*المهم هذا العبيط المتعصب
مؤمن بان الهه خلق كل شئ بكلمة كن
فهل هو خلق كلمته علشان يخلق الكون؟؟؟؟
روح كدا قول لشيخ كلمة الله اداة لخلق الكون وهذا غير واجب فى حق الاله وهيديك بالشلوط
ياابنى الكلمة كائن فى ذات الله وليس غريبا عنه ولا مخلوقا
هو ليس اداة لانه ليس غريبا عن ذات الله يخلقه كى يخلق بيه
هو كائن فى ذاته ومن جنسه ومن طبيعته وبيه خلق الاب كل العالم
بالكلمة خلق الله كل شئ وبغير الكلمة لم يكن شئ مما كان 
وهو نفسه شخص الاله (وكان الكلمة الله)*

تسلم بول على هذا الرد الشامل والمفحم
الاسلام ليس في قاموسه معاني روحية 
وعندما اراد احدهم ان يدلس على بولس استخدم امر لا علم له فيه كما ادعى هذا المسلم (*فالمسيح قد خُلق بواسطته ولكنه خلق الإيمان وخلق الروح وليس الخلق الحقيقي ... )*
*صعب على المسلم امثال هذا ان يفهم معنى (الكلمة ) مثلما يصعب عليه المعاني الروحية .*
*لان نبيه نفسه بل اله نبيه لم يوضح معنى الروح للمشككين به*
*الرب يبارك جهودك بول ويزيدك علم وعطاء*


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## Thunder Coptic (12 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

*انتا بتجيب الكلام دا منين*​


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## Thunder Coptic (12 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*




اوغسطينوس قال:


> *انتا بتجيب الكلام دا منين*​



يعني المراجع دي كلها عرفها اذاي


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## The Dragon Christian (12 نوفمبر 2011)

*رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين*

معاذ ايضا ناقض نفسه بخصوص قوله ؟/​




*                                 حقيقة نعلم أن بولس لم يدعى ابداً لاهوت المسيح                                  ولا التثليث ولم يدعى إلى عبادة المسيح *


 وبيناقض نفسه في كتابه وبيقول الاتي عن القديس بولس :​
*[FONT=&quot]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


*شاهد الصورة
*​
شفت أنت قلت ايه في كتابك يا عزيزي :
·       بولس مؤسس النصرانية  - مؤسس أكثر من (85 % )
·       يعلم ويتأكد ان يسوع هو الله .
·       لما قاله بولس عن نسخ التوراة وان المسيح هو الله .
·       ألف بولس الديانة الجديدة مما يجعل اله يموت .
·       حتى تمكن من تحويل الديانة تماما من رسول الله الي الله المتجسد .
لماذا تناقض نفسك؟؟ 
يبقي السؤال : هل بولس ادعي وتأكد ان المسيح هو الله وهو الله المتجسد  ولا لم يدعي ابدا لاهوت المسيح ؟؟ 
 --------------------------​ *[FONT=&quot]ألنقطه الثانية :[FONT=&quot] هي قولك " [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ولم يدعى إلى عبادة[/FONT][FONT=&quot]المسيح[/FONT][FONT=&quot] " :[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]لنري يا عزيزي :[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]في 1:1  بولس وتيموثاوس عبدا يسوع المسيح[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]رو 1:1  بولس عبد ليسوع المسيح المدعو رسولا المفرز لانجيل الله[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]كو 4:12  يسلم عليكم ابفراس الذي هو منكم عبد للمسيح[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]في 2:10  لكي تجثو باسم يسوع كل ركبة ممن في السماء ومن على الأرض ومن تحت الأرض[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]عب 1:6  وأيضا متى ادخل البكر الى العالم يقول ولتسجد له كل ملائكة الله.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]السؤال[FONT=&quot] :[/FONT][FONT=&quot] هل أعلن القديس بولس انه عبد ليسوع المسيح ام لا؟؟؟[/FONT][/FONT]* 



شكرا لك استاذي *apostle.paul*[/FONT]


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## بايبل333 (20 يناير 2013)

> ​ 4*-الرسول بولس يستخدم البركة الرسولية
> بركة الاب والابن والروح القدس
> ** نِعْمَةُ رَبِّنَا يَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحِ، وَمَحَبَّةُ اللهِ، وَشَرِكَةُ الرُّوحِ الْقُدُسِ مَعَ جَمِيعِكُمْ. آمِينَ.*.
> 
> ...


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## e-Sword (9 سبتمبر 2014)

للرفع للرد على تدليس الرومات الاسلامية


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## Maran+atha (9 سبتمبر 2014)

شكرا للموضوع 

فمكتوب عن ظهور الرب يسوع للقديس بولس فى الكتاب المقدس فى اعمال 9: 6-3
+ وفي ذهابه حدث انه اقترب الى دمشق فبغتة ابرق حوله نور من السماء.
+ فسقط على الارض وسمع صوتا قائلا له شاول شاول لماذا تضطهدني.
+ فقال من انت يا سيد.فقال الرب انا يسوع الذي انت تضطهده.
صعب عليك ان ترفس مناخس.
+ فقال وهو مرتعد ومتحير يا رب ماذا تريد ان افعل.
فقال له الرب قم وادخل المدينة فيقال لك ماذا ينبغي ان تفعل.

ربنا يباركك ويعوض تعب محبتك


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