# هل يمكن إثبات وجود المسيح بطريقة علمية ودون الرجوع إلى الكتاب المقدس.



## bob23 (18 ديسمبر 2011)

في إنتظار اجوبة الزملاء الكرام.


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## حبو اعدائكم (18 ديسمبر 2011)

*أخى اى طريقه علميه تطلب....!!!! عندما يقف الإعجاز الإلهى امام العلم...فأى نوع من انواع العلم تطلب.... اى علم يفسر لك*
*: ولاده طفل من عزراء....*
*- معجزات شفاء و إقامه موتى وتحكم فى الطبيعه*
*أى علم يفسر لك قيامه ميت فى اليوم الثالث و صعوده إلى السماء...*
* اى عام يقدر يفسر إنفجاج النور الإلهى الذى لا يحرق فى قبر ربنا يسوع المسيح كل عام حتى يومنا هذا..فقد عجز العلم تفسيره...*
*وقفت كتيبه العلاماء مع إختلاف انوعهم امام كفن الرب المقدس (لو كلفت نفسك و قريت الابحاث هتفهم)*
* اى إ علم يفسر المعجزات التتى تتم إلى يومنا هذا ....*
* اى إثبات تطلب اخى؟؟*
* الرب ينور حياتك اخى...الرب يباركك*


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## bob23 (18 ديسمبر 2011)

حبو اعدائكم قال:


> *أخى اى طريقه علميه تطلب....!!!! عندما يقف الإعجاز الإلهى امام العلم...فأى نوع من انواع العلم تطلب.... اى علم يفسر لك*
> *: ولاده طفل من عزراء....*
> *- معجزات شفاء و إقامه موتى وتحكم فى الطبيعه*
> *أى علم يفسر لك قيامه ميت فى اليوم الثالث و صعوده إلى السماء...*
> ...



أعتقد يا أختي العزيزة أنك لم تفهمي سؤالي. أنا لم أسأل عن معجزات المسيح وما إذا كانت تتحدى منطق العلم (مع انني أشكك بأنها قد حصلت على الإطلاق). أنا أسأل عن إثبات وجود المسيح تاريخياً من دون الاستناد على الانجيل كمصدر. لماذا؟ لأن الإنجيل مشكك بمصداقيته من الأساس بالنسبة لي وبالنسبة لمعظم العلماء.


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## اوريجانوس المصري (18 ديسمبر 2011)

معجزات السيد المسي ذكرها حتي اعداء المسيح انفسهم وهذا يؤكد حدوثا طبعا لان العدو لا يشهد ابدا له

بنسبه للسيد المسيح تاريخيا خارج الاناجيل كثيرة جدا ومنها هذه الدراسه اتفضل


++ كيرلس ++ قال:


> *يسوع خارج العھد الجديد
> دراسة علمية مُبَسّطة عن يسوع من أقدم المصادر غير الكتابية​*
> 
> *تنقسم المصادر التاريخية المُبكّرة  عن حياة يسوع وتعاليمه الى قسمين رئيسيين: 1- مصادر كتابية (كُتب العهد  الجديد) و2- مصادر غير كتابية. ونحن في هذه الدراسة المُبسطة سنتناول  المصادر غير الكتابية بالسرد والدراسة والرد على بعض النقد. ومع أن هذه  المصادر وحدها لا ترسُم لنا صورة مُفصّلة متكاملة عن يسوع كما نراها في  كُتب العهد الجديد (التي هي المصدر الرئيسي لمعرفتنا عن يسوع)، إلا أنها  تُشكّل دعما وتأييدا ذا قيمة كبيرة لرواية المصادر الكتابية والتقليد  المسيحي وتأكيدا لصحتهما وسلامتهما.
> ...



لم حضرتك عملت بحث في المنتدي هتجد موضوعات كثيرة جدا عن هذا الموضوع


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## DAWOODx (18 ديسمبر 2011)

bob23 قال:


> *لأن الإنجيل مشكك بمصداقيته من الأساس بالنسبة لي وبالنسبة لمعظم العلماء*.


 

* لمعظم العلماء,المســــلمين.:t16:*


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## bob23 (18 ديسمبر 2011)

اوريجانوس المصري قال:


> معجزات السيد المسي ذكرها حتي اعداء المسيح انفسهم وهذا يؤكد حدوثا طبعا لان العدو لا يشهد ابدا له
> 
> بنسبه للسيد المسيح تاريخيا خارج الاناجيل كثيرة جدا ومنها هذه الدراسه اتفضل
> 
> ...



 شكرا على أول إجابة مقبولة، سأقرأ الدراسة و أعود إليك


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## مكرم زكى شنوده (18 ديسمبر 2011)

*بجانب الدراسة ذات القيمة الكبيرة التى قدمها أخونا الحبيب المصرى عن أخونا الحبيب كيرلس 

فقد أوضحت فى موضوعك السابق ، أن عمل المسيح ذاته ، ليس فقط القديم ، بل والدائم طوال العصور ، وفى أيامنا نحن ، هو أعظم برهان

وبعد دراستك التاريخية ، أرجو أن تعطى نفسك الفرصة لفحص موضوع المعجزات الحالية 

وما دمت تدرس الطب ، فعلم الطب كله قائم على الفحص لحالات حدثت فعلاً ، فما توصل إليه الطب ، لم يكن بالبرهان الرياضى ، بل ببرهان الواقع ، من فحص حالات المرضى ، ومن تجربة الأدوية وطرق العلاج المختلفة

فإعتبر أن المعجزات هى حالات تحتاج الدراسة بكل جدية ، ونحن لا نطالب أحداً بأن يغمضوا عيونهم ويقولوا آمين

بل نطالبهم بأن يفتحوا عيونهم ، ويفحصوا بعقولهم 
*


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## بايبل333 (18 ديسمبر 2011)

بايبل333 قال:


> *"سلام المسيح"*
> *بشرى سارة مفرحة لكل مسيحى ولكل أنسان
> مسيحى ومن أراد أن يكون مسيحى
> ولد المسيح
> ...




*الكتاب المقدس يخبرنا ان السيد المسيح هو امس واليوم والى الابد فمن خلال التاريخ هو غير مجرى التاريخ فهل تستطيع ان تنكر ذلك.؟*


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## اوريجانوس المصري (20 ديسمبر 2011)

*هل صُلب المسيح حقا؟*
*  (أ) أسباب منطقية *
*  (ب)أسباب كتابية  *

 * الفصل الثاني: الوثائق التاريخية *
*  (أ) الوثائق الوثنية *
*  (ب) الوثائق اليهودية *
*  (ج) التلمود*
*  (د) الوثائق الغنوسيّة*
*  (ه) الوثائق المسيحية*
*  (و) الرسوم والنقوش والفرائض *

 * الفصل الثالث: صلب المسيح وموته في الإسلام *
*  (أ) رأي مفسّري المسلمين *
*  (ب) التأويل الطبيعي *

 *Download*​


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## My Rock (20 ديسمبر 2011)

ولادة المسيح المذكورة في الأناجيل و تناسقها و توافقها مع التاريخ و المؤرخين


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## مونيكا 57 (20 ديسمبر 2011)

*جوزيفس (37 - 97 ب.م. ) مؤرخ يهودي كتب عن تاريخ شعبه في عشرين مجلداً . حيث سجل قصة حياة المسيح وتعاليمه ، ومعجزاته ، وقصة صلبه بالتفصيل ، بأمر من بيلاطس البنطي . ثم أشار ايضاً الى ظهور المسيح لتلاميذه حياً في اليوم الثالث 

لوسيان الإغريقي مؤرخ بارز كتب عن صلب المسيح وعن المسيحيين الذين كانوا قد قبلوا الموت لأجل ايمانهم بالمسيح . 



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08522a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm

​*


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## end (20 ديسمبر 2011)

*طابت ايامك يا دكتور , منوّر المنتدى 
فضلا عرّفنا بالافكار التي بداخلك حول المسيح , و الكتب التى طالعتها بهذا الشأن 
دمت في خير*


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## فادي الكلداني (21 ديسمبر 2011)

*Pagan sources*



The non-Christian sources for the historical truth of the Gospels are both few and polluted by hatred and prejudice. A number of reasons have been advanced for this condition of the pagan sources: 

The field of the Gospel history was remote Galilee; 
the Jews were noted as a superstitious race, if we believe Horace (_Credat Judoeus Apella_, I, Sat., v, 100); 
the God of the Jews was unknown and unintelligible to most pagans of that period; 
the Jews in whose midst Christianity had taken its origin were dispersed among, and hated by, all the pagan nations; 
the Christian religion itself was often confounded with one of the many sects that had sprung up in Judaism, and which could not excite the interest of the pagan spectator.
It is at least certain that neither Jews nor Gentiles suspected in the least the paramount importance of the religion, the rise of which they witnessed among them. These considerations will account for the rarity and the asperity with which Christian events are mentioned by pagan authors. But though Gentile writers do not give us any information about Christ and the early stages of Christianity which we do not possess in the Gospels, and though their statements are made with unconcealed hatred and contempt, still they unwittingly prove the historical value of the facts related by the Evangelists.
We need not delay over a writing entitled the "Acts of Pilate", which must have existed in the second century (Justin, "Apol"., I, 35), and must have been used in the paganschools to warn boys against the belief of Christians (Eusebius, _Church History_ I.9; _Church History_ IX.5); nor need we inquire into the question whether there existed any authentic census tables of Quirinius.


*Tacitus*


We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the procuratorPontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius; that His religion, though suppressed for a time, broke forth again not only throughout Judea where it had originated, but even in Rome, the conflux of all the streams of wickedness and shamelessness; furthermore, that Nero had diverted from himself the suspicion of the burning of Rome by charging the Christians with the crime; that these latter were not guilty of arson, though they deserved their fate on account of their universal misanthropy. Tacitus, moreover, describes some of the horrible torments to which Nero subjected the Christians (Ann., XV, xliv). The Roman writer confounds the Christians with the Jews, considering them as a especially abject Jewish sect; how little he investigated the historical truth of even the Jewish records may be inferred from the credulity with which he accepted the absurd legends and calumnies about the origin of he Hebrew people (Hist., V, iii, iv).


*Suetonius*


Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54): "Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma expulit" (Clau., xxv). In his life of Nero he regards that emperor as a public benefactor on account of his severe treatment of the Christians: "Multa sub eo et animadversa severe, et coercita, nec minus instituta . . . . afflicti Christiani, genus hominum superstitious novae et maleficae" (Nero, xvi). The Roman writer does not understand that the Jewish troubles arose from the Jewish antagonism to the Messianic character of Jesus Christ and to the rights of the Christian Church.*Pliny the Younger*


Of greater importance is the letter of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (about A.D. 61-115), in which the Governor of Bithynia consults his imperial majesty as to how to deal with the Christians living within his jurisdiction. On the one hand, their lives were confessedly innocent; no crime could be proved against them excepting their Christianbelief, which appeared to the Roman as an extravagant and perverse superstition. On the other hand, the Christians could not be shaken in their allegiance to Christ, Whom they celebrated as their God in their early morning meetings (Ep., X, 97, 98). Christianity here appears no longer as a religion of criminals, as it does in the texts of Tacitus and Suetonius; Pliny acknowledges the high moral principles of the Christians, admires their constancy in the Faith (_pervicacia et inflexibilis obstinatio_), which he appears to trace back to their worship of Christ (_carmenque Christo, quasi Deo, dicere_).


*Other pagan writers*


The remaining pagan witnesses are of less importance: In the second century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ's death on the Cross, to His miracles, to the mutual love prevailing among the Christians ("Philopseudes", nn. 13, 16; "De Morte Pereg"). There are also alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, _Against Celsus_ IV.51), to His parables in Galerius, to the earthquake at the Crucifixion in Phlegon (Origen, _Against Celsus_ II.14). Before the end of the second century, the _logos alethes_ of Celsus, as quoted by Origen (_Contra Celsus_, _passim_), testifies that at that time the facts related in the Gospels were generally accepted as historically true. However scanty the pagan sources of the life of Christ may be, they bear at least testimony to His existence, to His miracles, His parables, His claim to Divine worship, His death on the Cross, and to the more striking characteristics of His religion.


*Jewish sources*

*Philo*


Philo, who dies after A.D. 40, is mainly important for the light he throws on certain modes of thought and phraseology found again in some of the Apostles. Eusebius (_Church History_ II.4) indeed preserves a legend that Philo had met St. Peter in Rome during his mission to the Emperor Caius; moreover, that in his work on the contemplative life he describes the life of the Christian Church in Alexandria founded by St. Mark, rather than that of the Essenes and Therapeutae. But it is hardly probable that Philo had heard enough of Christ and His followers to give an historical foundation to the foregoing legends.


*Josephus*


The earlist non-Christian writer who refers Christ is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus; born A.D. 37, he was a contemporary of the Apostles, and died in Rome A.D. 94. Two passages in his "Antiquities" which confirm two facts of the inspired Christian records are not disputed. In the one he reports the murder of "John called Baptist" by Herod (Ant., XVIII, v, 2), describing also John's character and work; in the other (Ant., XX, ix, 1) he disapproves of the sentence pronounced by the high priest Ananus against "James, brother of Jesus Who was called Christ." It is antecedently probable that a writer so well informed as Josephus, must have been well acquainted too with the doctrine and the history of Jesus Christ. Seeing, also, that he records events of minor importance in the history of the Jews, it would be surprising if he were to keep silence about Jesus Christ. Consideration for the priests and Pharisees did not prevent him from mentioning the judicial murders of John the Baptist and the Apostle James; his endeavour to find the fulfilment of the Messianic prophecies in Vespasian did not induce him to pass in silence over several Jewish sects, though their tenets appear to be inconsistent with the Vespasian claims. One naturally expects, therefore, a notice about Jesus Christ in Josephus. _Antiquities_ XVIII, iii, 3, seems to satisfy this expectation:
About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him (for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day.​A testimony so important as the foregoing could not escape the work of the critics. Their conclusions may be reduced to three headings: those who consider the passage wholly spurious; those who consider it to be wholly authentic; and those who consider it to be a little of each.
_Those who regard the passage as spurious_

First, there are those who consider the whole passage as spurious. The principal reasons for this view appear to be the following: 

Josephus could not represent Jesus Christ as a simple moralist, and on the other hand he could not emphasize the Messianic prophecies and expectations without offending the Roman susceptibilities; 
the above cited passage from Josephus is said to be unknown to Origen and the earlier patristic writers; 
its very place in the Josephan text is uncertain, since Eusebius (_Church History_ II.6) must have found it before the notices concerning Pilate, while it now stands after them.
But the spuriousness of the disputed Josephan passage does not imply the historian's ignorance of the facts connected with Jesus Christ. Josephus's report of his own juvenile precocity before the Jewish teachers (Vit., 2) reminds one of the story of Christ's stay in the Temple at the age of twelve; the de******ion of his shipwreck on his journey to Rome (Vit., 3) recalls St. Paul's shipwreck as told in the Acts; finally his arbitrary introduction of a deceit practised by the priests of Isis on a Roman lady, after the chapter containing his supposed allusion to Jesus, shows a disposition to explain away the virgin birth of Jesus and to prepare the falsehoods embodied in the later Jewish writings.

_Those who regard the passage as authentic, with some spurious _
_additions_

A second class of critics do not regard the whole of Josephus's testimony concerning Christ as spurious but they maintain the interpolation of parts included above in parenthesis. The reasons assigned for this opinion may be reduced to the following two: 

Josephus must have mentioned Jesus, but he cannot have recognized Him as the Christ; hence part of our present Josephan text must be genuine, part must be interpolated. 
Again, the same conclusion follows from the fact that Origenknew a Josephan text about Jesus, but was not acquainted with our present reading; for, according to the great Alexandrian doctor, Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the Messias ("In Matth.", xiii, 55; _Against Celsus_ I.47).
Whatever force these two arguments have is lost by the fact that Josephus did not write for the Jews but for the Romans; consequently, when he says, "This was the Christ", he does not necessarily imply that Jesus was the Christ considered by the Romans as the founder of the Christian religion.

_Those who consider it to be completely genuine_

The third class of scholars believe that the whole passage concerning Jesus, as it is found today in Josephus, is genuine. The main arguments for the genuineness of the Josephan passage are the following: 

First, all codices or manu******s of Josephus's work contain the text in question; to maintain the spuriousness of the text, we must suppose that all the copies of Josephus were in the hands of Christians, and were changed in the same way. 
Second, it is true that neither Tertullian nor St. Justin makes use of Josephus's passage concerning Jesus; but this silence is probably due to the contempt with which the contemporary Jews regarded Josephus, and to the relatively little authority he had among the Roman readers. Writers of the age of Tertullian and Justin could appeal to living witnesses of the Apostolic tradition. 
Third, Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl"., I, xi; cf. "Dem. Ev.", III, v) Sozomen (_Church History_ I.1), Niceph. (Hist. Eccl., I, 39), Isidore of Pelusium (Ep. IV, 225), St. Jerome (catal.******. eccles. xiii), Ambrose, Cassiodorus, etc., appeal to the testimony of Josephus; there must have been no doubt as to its authenticity at the time of these illustrious writers. 
Fourth, the complete silence of Josephus as to Jesus would have been a more eloquent testimony than we possess in his present text; this latter contains no statement incompatible with its Josephan authorship: the Roman reader needed the information that Jesus was the Christ, or the founder of the Christian religion; the wonderful works of Jesus and His Resurrection from the dead were so incessantly urged by the Christians that without these attributes the Josephan Jesus would hardly have been acknowledged as the founder of Christianity. 
All this does not necessarily imply that Josephus regarded Jesus as the Jewish Messias; but, even if he had been convinced of His Messiahship, it does not follow that he would have become a Christian. A number of possible subterfuges might have supplied the Jewish historian with apparently sufficient reasons for not embracing Christianity.




*Other Jewish sources*


The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of His parents (Origen, _Against Celsus_ I.28 and I.32). The father's name is Panthera, a common soldier (Gemara "Sanhedrin", viii; "Schabbath", xii, cf. Eisenmenger, "Entdecktes Judenthum", I, 109; Schottgen, "Horae Hebraicae", II, 696; Buxtorf, "Lex. Chald.", Basle, 1639, 1459, Huldreich, "Sepher toledhoth yeshua hannaceri", Leyden, 1705). The last work in its final edition did not appear before the thirteenth century, so that it could give the Panthera myth in its most advanced form. Rosch is of opinion that the myth did not begin before the end of the first century.The later Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with the murder of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, "Confut. Libr. Toldoth", 15; Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with the flight into Egypt (cf. Josephus, "Ant." XIII, xiii), with the stay of Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op. cit., II, 696), with the call of the disciples ("Sanhedrin", 43a; Wagenseil, op. cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His miracles (Origen, _Against Celsus_ II.48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150; Gemara "Sanhedrin" fol. 17); "Schabbath", fol. 104b; Wagenseil, op. cit., 6, 7, 17), with His claim to be God (Origen, _Against Celsus_ I.28; cf. Eisenmenger, op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699) with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, "Contra cels.", II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, "Hor. Heb.", 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699 700; cf. "Sanhedrin", vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, _Against Celsus_ II.55) tries to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19) repeats the Jewish fiction that the body of Jesus had been stolen from the sepulchre.




*CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA*

*تحياتي*


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## apostle.paul (21 ديسمبر 2011)

*احب اضيف لما قدم جزء من كتاب تاريخ الكنيسة ليوسابيوس القيصرى
صورة ارسلها الحكام ابجارا الى يسوع على يد حنانيا الساعى
*


​


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## apostle.paul (21 ديسمبر 2011)

*ودا النص الانجليزى من كتاب تاريخ الكنيسة ليوسابيوس القيصرى
* *Copy of the letter written by King Agbarus to Jesus, and sent to him, at Jerusalem, by Ananias, the courier*​

*“Agbarus, prince of Edessa, sends greeting to Jesus the excellent Saviour, who has appeared in the borders of Jerusalem. I have heard the reports respecting thee and thy cures, as performed by thee without medicines and without the use of herbs. For, as it is said, thou causest the blind to see again, the lame to walk, and thou cleansest the lepers, and thou castest out impure spirits and demons, and thou healest those that are tormented by long disease, and thou raisest the dead. And hearing all these things of thee, I concluded in my mind one of two things: either that thou art God, and, having descended from heaven, doest these things, or else, doing them, thou art the Son of God. Therefore, now I have written and besought thee to visit me, and to heal the disease with which I am afflicted. I have also heard that the Jews murmur against thee, and are plotting to injure thee; I have, however, a very small but noble state, which is sufficient for us both.”*​ 
*This epistle he thus wrote, whilst yet somewhat enlightened by the rays of divine truth. It is, also, worth the time to learn the epistle sent to him from Jesus, by the same bearer, which, though very brief, is yet full of power, written in the following style:*​*http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1 *
*http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref1**Eusebius of Caesarea. (1847). An Ecclesiastical History to the 20th Year of the Reign of Constantine (64). London: Samuel Bagster and Sons*.
​


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## apostle.paul (21 ديسمبر 2011)

*على فكرة بدايتك للتاكد من تاريخية المسيح هو الطريق الصحيح لمعرفتك بالمسيح
1-اولا تتاكد من ان المسيح فعلا شخصية حقيقة وجدت فى التاريخ

2-تتاكد من صلبوت المسيح
3-تتاكد ان قيامة يسوع هو التفسير الطبيعى لنشاءة الكرازة المسيحية *
*وصولك للتاكد من حقيقة موت يسوع وقيامته هو تاكيد لمسيانية يسوع والوهيته وان الابدية حقيقة وليس وهم*


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