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الرسالة: [QUOTE="apostle.paul, post: 3027380, member: 85886"] [b]رد: هل آمن بولس بأن المسيح هو الخالق ؟.ردا على سلفى مدلس وسحقه تحت موطئ قدمى المسيحين[/b] [COLOR=Black][FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue][B]يقول [/B][/COLOR][B]حقيقة u.d.n ان النصارى ولوا وانتهوا من قرون وحقيقة يا عزيزى بان النصارى هم المسلمين المؤمنين بهرطقات النصرانية بين ضفتى القران الىل انت مؤمن بانه تنزيل جبريلى [/B] [B]وحقيقة يا عزيزى بان المسيحية لا تحتاج الى تضليل ولا تدليس كما تفعل فنحن مؤمنين بالحق المطلق الذى هو يسوع المسيح كلمة الاب الازلى ولا غيره المسيحين الذين شهد لهم اعدائهم قبل معتنقيها ان قوة حجة المسيحين هى التى وقفت ضد فكر الوثنين [/B] [B]المهم لكى لا نطيل لنذهب لناقش لاهوت بولس الرسول علميا واكاديميا النص كامل من رسالة كولوسى [/B][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue][B]15 الَّذِي هُوَ صُورَةُ اللهِ غَيْرِ الْمَنْظُورِ، بِكْرُ كُلِّ خَلِيقَةٍ.[/B] [B]16 فَإِنَّهُ فِيهِ خُلِقَ الْكُلُّ: مَا في السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا عَلَى الأَرْضِ، مَا يُرَى وَمَا لاَ يُرَى، سَوَاءٌ كَانَ عُرُوشًا أَمْ سِيَادَاتٍ أَمْ رِيَاسَاتٍ أَمْ سَلاَطِينَ. الْكُلُّ بِهِ وَلَهُ قَدْ خُلِقَ.[/B] [B]17 الَّذِي هُوَ قَبْلَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ، وَفِيهِ يَقُومُ الْكُلُّ[/B] [B]18 وَهُوَ رَأْسُ الْجَسَدِ: الْكَنِيسَةِ. الَّذِي هُوَ الْبَدَاءَةُ، بِكْرٌ مِنَ الأَمْوَاتِ، لِكَيْ يَكُونَ هُوَ مُتَقَدِّمًا فِي كُلِّ شَيْءٍ.[/B] [B]19 لأَنَّهُ فِيهِ سُرَّ أَنْ يَحِلَّ كُلُّ الْمِلْءِ،[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE] [B]هذه[/B][B] الترنيمة هى اقدم ترنيمة وليتورجية ترنمت بيها كنيسة المسيح لتمجيد المسيح الاله المتانس[/B] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]This early Christian hymn emphasizes the superiority of Christ over all creation.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). [I]Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary[/I] (Col 1:16). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]وحقيقاً احبائى فى المسيح هذا النص وحده كفيل بان يقدم المسيا فى فكر بولس بانه هو نفسه الخالق اله اسرائيل كما سنثبت لكن قبلا يقول [/B][/COLOR][B]الاتنين الكل به قد خلق لانه هو الكلمة وحكمة الله الذى به كان كل شئ فبالكلمة خلق الله كل شئ وهو نفسه الخالق لان الكلمة هو نفسه الله ولا انت اريوسى مؤمن بان الله يخلق مخلوقا لكى يخلق بيه الخليقة؟؟؟؟؟؟ ودعونا نثبت [COLOR=Blue]اولا اقوال العلماء اولا فى مجتمع كولوسى ظهرت بعضت الافكار الغنوصية التى كانت تنادى بان المسيح كاحد الملائكة المخلوقين وبيه خلق الاله العالم المادى الشرير نفس الفكرة الىل بينادى بيها هذا السلفى الكافر الغنوصى وكتب بولس الرسول هذة الترنيمة كضد لفكر الغنوصيين الكفرة [/COLOR][/B][LEFT][B][FONT=Century Gothic]This idea is in direct contradiction to the false teaching, later known as Gnosticism, that was developing in the Colossian church. [COLOR=Blue]In general, Gnostics believed that various angelic beings were the creators of the earth and that Christ was one among many of these angels[/COLOR]. [/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Century Gothic]Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). [I]Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary[/I] (Col 1:16). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [B]لكن الرسول بولس نقض هذة الفكر الهرطوقى واكد على ان المسيا الذى فيه كل حل كل ملء لاهوت الله هو بنفسه خالق كل الخليقة [/B][LEFT][FONT=Book Antiqua][B][U][COLOR=Blue]all things were created through Him and for Him:[/COLOR][/U][U][COLOR=Blue] Not only did Jesus create all things; everything was created for His purposes[/COLOR][/U] (Heb. 1:2, where Christ is said to be the “heir of all things”). But the glory of the earth, the heavens, or the sun, moon, and stars cannot be compared with the glory of His new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). [/B][/FONT] [FONT=Book Antiqua][B]Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). [I]Nelson's new illustrated Bible commentary[/I] (Col 1:16). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers[/B][/FONT]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]ولنذهب الى مرجع اخر[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]False teachers use verse 15 (especially in the [URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1"]KJV[/URL]) to teach that the Lord Jesus was a created being. Error can usually be refuted from the very passage of ******ure which the cultists use. [U][COLOR=DarkRed]That is the case here. Verse [/COLOR][/U][U][COLOR=DarkRed]16[/COLOR][/U][U][COLOR=DarkRed] states conclusively that the Lord Jesus is not a creature, but the very Creator.[/COLOR][/U] In this verse we learn that all things—the whole universe of things—were created not only by Him but through Him and for Him. Each of these prepositions conveys a different thought. First of all, we read that by Him all things were created. [U][COLOR=DarkRed]Here the thought is that the power to create was in His Being.[/COLOR][/U] [U][COLOR=DarkRed]He was the Architect.[/COLOR][/U] Later in the verse we learn that all things were created through Him. This speaks of Him as the Agent in creation. He was the Person of the Godhead through whom the creative act was performed. Also, all things were created for Him. He is the One for whom all things were created, the goal of creation.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Paul goes to great lengths to emphasize that all things were created through Christ, whether things in heaven, or things on earth. This leaves no loopholes for anyone to suggest that although He created some things, He Himself was created originally.[/FONT][/B][/LEFT] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref1"]KJV [/URL]King James Version[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). [I]Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments[/I] (Col 1:16). Nashville: Thomas Nelson[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]تحليل يونانى للعدد[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]For by him were all things created. Three prepositions tell the story: ([U][COLOR=DarkRed]1) [/COLOR][/U][U][COLOR=DarkRed][I]In[/I] Him, sovereign source; (2) [I]by[/I] Him, divine agent; (3) [I]unto[/I][/COLOR][/U][U][COLOR=DarkRed] Him, for His use and for His glory. [/COLOR][/U]The first word created (Gr [I][FONT=Charis SIL]ktizō[/FONT][/I]) is in the Greek aorist tense and views creation as a definite, historical act. Creation is a past, perfect work. The second word created is in the Greek perfect tense and speaks of the resulting state. Creation stands created, a permanent work. [U][COLOR=DarkRed]We have a Christo-centric universe, and this is complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy[/COLOR][/U]. [/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][I]KJV Bible commentary[/I]. 1997, c1994 (2457). Nashville: Thomas Nelson[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]مرجع اخر يؤكد نفس ما قولناه[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]The terms “thrones,” “dominions,” “principalities,” and “powers” are often taken to refer to hierarchies or ranks of angelic beings. The Gnostics believed in a series of emanations (lesser spirits or aeons) proceeding from God, who was conceived as pure, absolute spirit. In the fully developed Gnostic systems of the second century a.d., as many as 40 emanations served to separate God from any taint of contact with the world, which was seen as evil matter. The most inferior emanation was the [I][FONT=Charis SIL]demiourgos [/FONT][/I](Gk.) or the creator of the world. Here Paul rightly elevates Christ as Creator, coeternal with the Father, above even the highest orders of heaven and earth. He is not one of the emanations, lesser spirits, or angels, as the Gnostics held, but is God incarnate[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][I]Believer's Study Bible[/I]. 1997, c1995. C1991 Criswell Center for Biblical Studies. (electronic ed.) (Col 1:16). Nashville: Thomas Nelson[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]ادم كلارك(ركز اوى)[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][LEFT] [B][FONT=Century Gothic]For by him were all things created, etc.] These two verses contain parts of the same subject. I shall endeavour to distinguish the statements of the apostle, and reason from them in such a way as the premises shall appear to justify, without appealing to any other ******ure in proof of the doctrine which I suppose these verses to vindicate.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Century Gothic][I]Four[/I] things are here asserted: [U][COLOR=DarkRed]1. That Jesus Christ is the [/COLOR][/U][U][COLOR=DarkRed][I]Creator of the universe; of all things visible and invisible[/I]; of all things that had a [I]beginning[/I], whether they exist in [I]time[/I] or in [I]eternity[/I][/COLOR][/U]. 2. That whatsoever was created was created for [I]himself[/I]; that he was the [I]sole end[/I] of his own work. 3. That he was [I]prior[/I] to all [I]creation[/I], to all [I]beings[/I], whether in the [I]visible[/I] or [I]invisible[/I] world. 4. That he is the [I]preserver[/I] and [I]governor[/I] of all things; for [I]by him all things consist[/I].[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Century Gothic][U][COLOR=DarkRed]Now, allowing St. Paul to have understood the terms which he used, he must have considered Jesus Christ as being truly and properly [I]God[/I][/COLOR][/U].[/FONT][/B][/LEFT] [B][FONT=Century Gothic]Clarke, A. (1999). [I]Clarke's Commentary: Colossians[/I] (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Clarke's Commentaries (Col 1:16). Albany, OR: Ages Software[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]مرجع اخر [/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]by him all things were created. Jesus did not come into existence when he was born of the virgin Mary. He was the agent of creation through whom God made heaven and earth (John 1:3 and note; 1 Cor. 8:6). Jesus cannot be the first thing created (as the ancient Arian heresy claimed) since “all things” without exception were created by him. thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. [U][COLOR=Blue]Paul is using the current Jewish terms for various rankings of angels (although he doesn’t explain their relative ranks). His emphasis here may be on the evil angels, since they play a significant part in this letter ([/COLOR][/U][U][COLOR=Blue]Col. 2:8, 10, 15, 20). This would not mean, however, that Jesus created evil angels; all spiritual powers were created by Jesus, but some later chose to rebel against God and so to become evil. Jesus is not only the agent of creation but is also the [I]goal[/I] of creation, for everything was created by him and for him, that is, for his honor and praise. Since Jesus is in this sense the goal of creation, he must be fully God[/COLOR][/U][/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Crossway Bibles. (2008). [I]The ESV Study Bible[/I] (2294). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] . [COLOR=Blue][B]اقوال اباء الكنيسة القديس ايريناؤس [/B][/COLOR][LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]All things were made through him and without him was made not a thing.”[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1"]48[/URL] From this “all” nothing is exempt. Now, it is the Father who made all things through him, whether visible or invisible, whether sensible or intelligible, whether temporal for the sake of some dispensation or eternal. These he did not make through angels or some powers that were separated from his thought. Against the Heresies 1.22.1.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref1"]48 [/URL]48 Jn 1:3.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Gorday, P. (2000). [I]Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (14). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B] العلامة اوريجانوس[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Now that we have briefly repeated our account of the Trinity, we must go on in the same way to remind the reader that through the Son “all things” are said to be “created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers—all things were created through him and in him he is before all things; in him who is the head all things hold together.” The “all things” includes the various supernatural powers that are specified in the remainder of the verse. Paul insists these are subordinate to Christ’s power and authority[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Gorday, P. (2000). [I]Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press [/FONT][/B][RIGHT][COLOR=Blue][B]القديس كيرلس الاوشليمى[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Therefore Christ is the Only-begotten Son of God and Maker of the World, for “he was in the world, and the world was made through him,”[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1"]51[/URL] and “he came unto his own,”[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn2"]52[/URL] as the Gospel teaches us. But Christ is the Maker, at the bidding of the Father, not only of things visible but also things invisible. For, according to the apostle: “In him were created all things in the heavens or on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things have been created through him and unto him, and he is before all creatures, and in him all things hold together.” Though you mention the worlds, Jesus Christ, at the bidding of the Father, is Maker of these too[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref1"]51 [/URL]51 Jn 1:10.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref2"]52 [/URL]52 Jn 1:11.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Gorday, P. (2000). [I]Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [/RIGHT] . [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]العظيم بين خلفاء مارمرقس بابا الاسكندرية وبطل الارثوذكسية البابا اثناسيوس الرسولى[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][FONT=Century Gothic][B]For the Word of God was not made for us but rather we for him, and “in him all things were created.” For even if it had seemed good to God not to make things of determinate origin, still the Word would have been no less with God, and the Father in him. At the same time, things of determinate origin could not without the Word be brought to be; hence they were made through him—and with meaning and purpose. For since the Word is the Son of God by nature proper to his essence and is from him, as he said himself, the creatures could not have come to be, except through him. Discourses Against the Arians 2.18.31. [/B][/FONT] [FONT=Century Gothic][B]Gorday, P. (2000). [I]Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press[/B][/FONT]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]القديس يوحنا فم الذهب[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]All things,” he says, “have been created through him, and to him.” Indeed, “in him” is “through him,” for having said “in him,” Paul added, “through him.” But what does “to him” mean? It is this: the subsistence of all things depends on him. Homilies on Colossians 3.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Gorday, P. (2000). [I]Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [COLOR=Blue][B]امبروسيوس[/B][/COLOR][B][FONT=Book Antiqua] [/FONT][/B][LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]So then, he himself who calls the Son of God the maker even of heavenly things has also plainly said that all things were made in the Son, that in the renewal of his works he might by no means separate the Son from the Father but unite him to the Father. Paul, too, says: “For in him were all things created in the heavens and in the earth, visible and invisible.” Of the Holy Spirit 3.11.83–84.[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1"]56[/URL] [/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref1"]56 [/URL]56 NPNF 2 10:147.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Gorday, P. (2000). [I]Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (15). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press [/FONT][/B][RIGHT][COLOR=Blue][B]اثناسيوس الغرب هيلارى اسقف بواتيه[/B][/COLOR] [LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=5]There is no doubt that all things are through the Son, since, according to the apostle, “All things are through him and in him.” If all things are through him, and all things are from nothing, and nothing is except through him, I ask in what way does he lack the true nature of God, since he is not lacking either in the nature or the power of God? For he used the power of his nature that these things should exist which had no existence, and that these things should exist which pleased him. On the Trinity 5.4. [/SIZE][/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=5]Gorday, P. (2000). [I]Colossians, 1-2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 9. (16). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [/RIGHT] . [/LEFT] [CENTER] [B] تاخذ افكار الغنوصيين الذين ادعوا بان المسيح مخلوق قد خلقه الاله ليخلق العالم لكى لا يتعامل مع المادة تاخذ افكار اريوس وتتدعى ان هناك الها مخلوقا خلق الخليقة غير الاله الواحد فنحن نعبد الها واحدا حكمته وكلمته الازلي كائن بذاته يسوع هو الكلمة والحكمة الازلى ملء لاهوت الله والمساو لله الكائن فى حضن الاب الكائن قبل كل الدهور والازمنة الذى بيه قد خلق الله العالمين كما قال العظيم بين رسول المسيح فى العبرانين [/B][RIGHT][SIZE=5][B]1[FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=Blue] اَللهُ، بَعْدَ مَا كَلَّمَ الآبَاءَ بِالأَنْبِيَاءِ قَدِيمًا، بِأَنْوَاعٍ وَطُرُق كَثِيرَةٍ،[/COLOR][/FONT][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=Blue] 2 كَلَّمَنَا فِي هذِهِ الأَيَّامِ الأَخِيرَةِ فِي ابْنِهِ، الَّذِي جَعَلَهُ وَارِثًا لِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ، الَّذِي بِهِ أَيْضًا عَمِلَ الْعَالَمِينَ، كما قال القديس ثيؤدوريت [/COLOR][/FONT][/B][/SIZE][LEFT][B][FONT=Book Antiqua]He spoke of the Son as “creator of the ages”[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1"]34[/URL] to bring out that he is eternal and to teach us that he was always beyond any temporal interval whatsoever. In these terms the Old Testament speaks of the God and Father as the one existing before the ages, that is, the one who always is. [/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua][URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref1"]34 [/URL]Literal translation of [I][FONT=Charis SIL]tous aiōnas[/FONT][/I] is “the ages.” The rsv translates this phrase as “the world.”[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Book Antiqua]Heen, E. M., & Krey, P. D. W. (2005). [I]Hebrews[/I]. Ancient Christian Commentary on ******ure NT 10 (7). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press[/FONT][/B]. [/LEFT] [B]يتبع باثبات ان الابن هو يهوه[/B] [/RIGHT] [/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]

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