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الرسالة: [QUOTE="Molka Molkan, post: 3429916, member: 79186"] [COLOR="Black"][FONT="Tahoma"][SIZE="4"][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]أمال أنا قلت أية عن الترجمة السبعينية أيها المريض؟ أليس ما تقوله الآن؟ أم أني قلت أنها تقول أنها لم تحمله مثلاً؟ أجبنا أيها المريض.. [SIZE=4] والآن ننتقل لتعليقه على الترجمة السريانية البسيطة.. [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][SIZE=4]والآن تعليقنا.. [SIZE=4] 1.[/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=4] الثلاثة إستشهادات التي أتيت بها لم تترجم النص! بل قالت أن الترجمة السريانية تقول كما الترجمة السبعينية أن هاجر وضعت إبنها على كتفيها، ولم يقدم أي كتاب منهم ترجمة للنص، على عكس ما قدمت أنا، فهو ترجمة للنص كنص، وربما كانت إستشهاداتك تتكلم عن معنى النص القائل "والولد" وليس ترجمته الحرفية، وهذه هى المشكلة في إستشهاداتك، أنها ليس بها ترجمة للنص بل رأي لا نعرف هل هو بناء على حرفية النص أم على فهم الكتاب له. 2. نحن الآن نتكلم عن "النص" وليس "المعنى" فم بتأجيل الحديث في معناه إلى أن ننهي الحديث من النص، لانه من غير المعقول ان تناقش المعنى قبل النص الذي يعطينا المعنى! 3. لو كان هؤلاء المستشهد بهم يقصدون أن النص يقول نصياً أن "هاجر حملت إسماعيل على كتفيها" فقد أخطأوا، والدليل هو النص نفسه كما سنبين حالاً وكما ترجم لمزا النص، وأما إن كانوا يقصدون أن "مـــعــنــى" النص القائل "والولد" هو عطف على "الحمل" وليس على "الإعطاء" فهذا رأيهم وهم أحرار فيه ولا قيمة له عندي في الترجيح لأنه مجرد رأي ننقاشه أصلاً. 4. ماذا يقول النص؟ يقول النص: [/SIZE] [SIZE=5][FONT=Serto Jerusalem][B]ܘܩ̇ܕܡ ܐܒܪܗܡ ܒܨܦܪܐ. ܘܢܣ̣ܒ ܠܚܡܐ ܘܪܩܒܐ ܕܡ̈ܝܐ ܘܝܗ̣ܒ ܠܗܓܪ. ܘܣܡ ܥܠ ܟܬܦܗ̇ ܘܠܛܠܝܐ ܘܫܕܪܗ̇ ܘܐܙ̣ܠܬ. ܘܛܥ̣ܬ ܒܡܕܒܪܐ ܕܒܪܫܒܥ.[/B] [B] وترجمته الحرفية:[/B] [/FONT][COLOR=Navy][B][FONT=Times New Roman]وقدم إبراهيم باكراً، [COLOR=Red]وأخذ خبز[/COLOR][SIZE=5][COLOR=Red]اً وجرّة ما[/COLOR][SIZE=5][COLOR=Red]ء وأعطى لهاجر، ووضع على كتفها والولد[/COLOR] وأرسلها وغادرت[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/COLOR][FONT=Serto Jerusalem][COLOR=Navy][B][FONT=Times New Roman] وضل[SIZE=5]ّ[/SIZE]ت ببرية برشبع.[/FONT][/B][/COLOR] [B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5]والجزء محل الدراسة [SIZE=5](الملون بالأحمر) هو كما ترجمه لمزا أيضاً وهذا طبيعي ومنتظر إذ أن النص فعلا[SIZE=5]ً يقول بهذا حرفياً، وعلى المعترض أن يترجم النص بنفسه [SIZE=5]ويرينا من أين سيأتي بأن النص يقول [SIZE=5]أن هاجر وضعت الولد على كتفها حرفياً! فهذا مما ليس ف[SIZE=5]ي النص، لكن [SIZE=5]ربما فهم هؤ[SIZE=5]لاء المعلقين هذا من خلال عطف "[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/FONT][/SIZE][B][SIZE=5][FONT=Serto Jerusalem][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][FONT=Serto Jerusalem]ܠܛܠܝܐ[/FONT][/SIZE]" على "[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/B][SIZE=5][FONT=Serto Jerusalem][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][SIZE=5][B][SIZE=5][FONT=Serto Jerusalem]ܣܡ[/FONT][/SIZE]"، وهذا هو محل النقاش أصلاً..[/B] [B][SIZE=5]والآن السؤال المعتاد: [COLOR=Blue]إستخرج لي من النص حرفياً أن هاجر وضعت الولد على كتفها[/COLOR]! [SIZE=5]والغريب أن هذا التر[SIZE=5]تيب هو نفسه الترتيب العبري: [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=5][FONT=SBL Hebrew]וַיַּשְׁכֵּם אַבְרָהָם בַּבֹּקֶר וַיִּקַּח־לֶחֶם וְחֵמַת מַיִם וַיִּתֵּן אֶל־הָגָר שָׂם עַל־שִׁכְמָהּ [COLOR=Red]וְאֶת־הַיֶּלֶד[/COLOR] וַיְשַׁלְּחֶהָ וַתֵּלֶךְ וַתֵּתַע בְּמִדְבַּר בְּאֵר שָׁבַע׃ [SIZE=5][SIZE=5][FONT=Times New Roman][B]وهو نفسه ما قالته الترجمات التي وضعتها!:[/B][/FONT] [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][LEFT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a flask of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder—[B][COLOR=red]and the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]DARBY[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and gave her the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]ASV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a bottle of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulders, [B][COLOR=red]and he sent her and the youth away[/COLOR][/B]. And she wandered on [aimlessly] and lost her way in the wilderness of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]AMP[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]AV 1873[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose up early in the morning—and took bread and a skin of water and gave unto Hagar,—putting them on her shoulder [B][COLOR=red]and the child[/COLOR][/B] and sent her forth,—so she went her way and wandered, in the desert of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]EMPH[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]along with the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]ESV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]along with the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]ESV OT Rev. Int.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Avraham started-early in the morning, he took some bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar—placing them upon her shoulder—[B][COLOR=red]together with the child[/COLOR][/B] and sent her away. She went off and roamed in the wilderness of Be’er-Sheva. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]Five Books of Moses[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early the next morning Abraham took bread and a container of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder. [B][COLOR=red]He also gave her the boy[/COLOR][/B]and sent her on her way. So she left and wandered around in the desert near Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]GW[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early in the morning Abraham got up, took bread and a waterskin, ⌊put them⌋ on Hagar’s shoulders, [B][COLOR=red]and sent her and the boy away[/COLOR][/B]. She left and wandered in the Wilderness of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]HCSB[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose up in the morning, and taking bread and a bottle of water, put it upon her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and delivered the boy[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Bersabee. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]D-R[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Avraham got up early in the morning, took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and the child[/COLOR][/B]; then he sent her away. After leaving, she wandered in the desert around Be’er-Sheva. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]CJB[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]KJV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]KJV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham got up early the next morning, prepared food for the journey, and strapped a canteen of water to Hagar’s shoulders [B][COLOR=red]and sent her away with their son[/COLOR][/B]. She walked out into the wilderness of Beersheba, wandering aimlessly.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]The Living Bible[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Abraham got up early the next morning, got some food together and a canteen of water for Hagar, put them on her back [B][COLOR=red]and sent her away with the child[/COLOR][/B]. She wandered off into the desert of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]The Message[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early in the morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He put them on her shoulders, [B][COLOR=red]gave her the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. So she went wandering aimlessly through the wilderness of Beer Sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NET[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and gave her the boy[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NASB[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and gave her the boy[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed and wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NASB95[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early the next morning Abraham got some food and a bottle of water. The bottle was made out of animal skin. He gave the food and water to Hagar. He placed them on her shoulders. [B][COLOR=red]Then he sent her away with the boy[/COLOR][/B]. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NIrV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders [B][COLOR=red]and then sent her off with the boy[/COLOR][/B]. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NIV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders [B][COLOR=red]and then sent her off with the boy[/COLOR][/B]. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NIV - Anglicised[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders [B][COLOR=red]and then sent her off with the boy[/COLOR][/B]. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NIV84[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]he gave it and the boy to Hagar[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NKJV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham got up early the next morning, prepared food and a container of water, and strapped them on Hagar’s shoulders. [B][COLOR=red]Then he sent her away with their son[/COLOR][/B], and she wandered aimlessly in the wilderness of Beersheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NLT[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]along with the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NRSV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]along with the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]NRSVCE[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it upon her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]and the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]The Numerical Bible, Vol. 1: The Pentateuch[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]along with the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]RSV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]along with the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]RSVCE[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early next morning Abraham took some bread and a skin of water, and gave them to Hagar. He placed them over her shoulder, [B][COLOR=red]together with the child[/COLOR][/B], and sent her away. And she wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]Tanakh[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders [B][COLOR=red]and then sent her off with the boy[/COLOR][/B]. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]TNIV[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]14 And Abraham riseth early in the morning, and taketh bread, and a bottle of water, and giveth unto Hagar (placing it on her shoulder), [B][COLOR=red]also the lad[/COLOR][/B], and sendeth her out; and she goeth on, and goeth astray in the wilderness of Beer-Sheba;[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4]YLT[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT] [SIZE=4] وهو ما إعترض عليه وظل يضع ترجمات عربية للكلمات مثل together و along with وكأن هذه هى المشكلة! والآن، قل لي، هل النص يقول حرفياً "والولد" في العبرية والسريانية، أم يقول حرفياً أن هاجر وضعت الولد على كتفها؟ مع إستخراج النصين... [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]

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