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الرد على الموضوع

الرسالة: [QUOTE="Molka Molkan, post: 3226804, member: 79186"] [COLOR="Black"][FONT="Tahoma"][SIZE="4"] نعم هذا رد، لان الكلام ليس عن معنى الكلمة اللغوي، فلم يدعي احد ان الكلمة ككلمة تعني واحد في الجوهر لتأتي بمعناها من القواميس، لكن نتناقش في معناها ف هذا النص تحديدا بهذا التركيب تحديدا وهذا ما لن يتطرق إليه القاموس، بل التفسير اللغوي النصي للنص.. ولماذا نفرض ولا ترد على ما نقضدت به ردك؟ لو كتبوا في خواطرهم عندنا أحضر لي خواطرهم وسأنقضها كما العادة.. لكن هل القواميس تشرح معنى النص لغويا؟ طبعا انا اقدر حالتك فانت لجأت لنوع المراجع الوحيد الذي يمكن ان يكون معك وهو المراجع اللغوية، وانا كنت اعرف هذا ولهذا قلت لك اني لا اتحدث عن المعنى اللغوي للكلمة أصلا، ولكنك للأسف لأنك فارغ الحجة وفشلت في الإتيان بشبهة دليل واحد حتى، فقلت أجمع كلمتين من القواميس المهم يبقوا انجليزي :) ارد ليه على ما قالوه؟ انا غير معترض على ما قالوه لغويا للكلمة ككلمة ولا اتحاور اصلا في الكلمة ككلمة، فلماذا ارد على ما قالوه؟ مش فاهم الصراحة السؤال معناه اية، رجاء التوضيح.. وأعيد أنا مرة اخرى بدوري يمكن ان تفهم ما اقول: فهذا كان ردي عليك، فهل رددت؟ لا، بل كررت نفس الكلام مرة أخرى، وهذا حالك دائما، تأتي بما تعتقده يؤيدك، فنرد عليه، فتكره فنرد مرة أخرى فتكرره فنرد فتكرر :) من قال ان هذه السلسلة من الردود انا اركز فيها اصلا على الجانب النصي لكي تسألني عنها؟ هل هذا هروب من الكلام الذي وضعته لك بشكل نصي سواء في حوارنا الاساسي او الكلام الذي للذكرى الآخر الذي يتكلم نصياً؟ فطالما علقت على هذا النص فلماذا لم تعلق ايضا على هذه النصوص : [LEFT][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][LEFT][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][B][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=Red][B]1 [/B][COLOR=Blue][B])[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][COLOR=Blue]..[/COLOR] [/CENTER] [COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [LEFT] [LEFT]In verse 28 Jesus has spoken about his own love for the sheep; in verse 29 about his Father’s love. No one shall snatch them out of the Son’s hand nor out of the Father’s hand, for they are more precious than all others. Hence, with respect to this protecting care, Son (verse 28) and Father (verse 29) are [I]one[/I]. Therefore Jesus says, [B]I and the Father, we are one.[/B][/LEFT] [LEFT]However, inasmuch as in other passages it is clearly taught that the oneness is a matter not only of outward operation but also (and basically) [B][COLOR=Red]of inner essence[/COLOR][/B] (see especially 5:18 but also 1:14, 18; 3:16), it is clear that also here nothing less than this can have been meant. Certainly if Son and Father are [I]one[/I] essentially, then when Jesus states, “I and the Father, we are one,” [B][COLOR=Red]he cannot merely mean, “We are one in providing protective care for the sheep.[/COLOR][/B]” The economic trinity rests forever upon the essential trinity (see on 1:14 and 1:18).[/LEFT] [LEFT]Note how carefully both the diversity of the persons [B][COLOR=Red]and the unity of the essence[/COLOR][/B] is expressed here. Jesus says, “I and the Father.” Hence, he clearly speaks about [I]two[/I] persons. And this plurality is shown also by the verb (one word in Greek) “[I]we[/I]-are” ([B][FONT=Gentium]ἐσμεν[/FONT][/B]). These two persons never become one [I]person[/I]. Hence, Jesus does not say, “We are [I]one person”[/I] ([B][FONT=Gentium]εἶς[/FONT][/B]), [COLOR=Red][B]but he says, “We are one [I]substance[/I] ([/B][B][FONT=Gentium]ἕν[/FONT])[/B][/COLOR]. Though two [I]persons,[/I] [B][COLOR=Red]the two are one [I]substance[/I] or [I]essence[/I][/COLOR][/B]. [/LEFT] [SIZE=3]Hendriksen, W., & Kistemaker, S. J. (1953-2001). [I]Vol. 1-2[/I]: [I]New Testament commentary : Exposition of the Gospel According to John[/I]. Accompanying biblical text is author's translation. New Testament Commentary (2:125-126). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.[/SIZE] [/LEFT] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]3 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][LEFT] [LEFT]“One” asserts not the identity (as a single Person) but the [B][COLOR=Red]essential unity[/COLOR][/B] of the Father and the Son. [/LEFT] [SIZE=3][I]Believer's Study Bible[/I]. 1997, c1995. C1991 Criswell Center for Biblical Studies. (electronic ed.) (Jn 10:30). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.[/SIZE] [COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]4 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][LEFT][B]I and my Father are one.[/B]] If Jesus Christ were not God, could he have said these words without being guilty of blasphemy? It is worthy of remark that Christ does not say, [I]I and[/I] my[I] Father[/I], which [I]my[/I] our translation very improperly supplies, and which in this place would have conveyed a widely different meaning: for then it would imply that the [I]human[/I] nature of Christ, of which [I]alone[/I], I conceive, God is ever said to be the Father in ******ure, was [I]equal[/I] to [I]the Most High[/I]: but he says, speaking then [I][COLOR=Red][B]as God[/B][/COLOR] over all, I and [/I]the[I] Father[/I], [B][FONT=Gentium]εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν[/FONT][/B]-the Creator of all things, the Judge of all men, the Father of the spirits of all flesh-[I]are[/I] one, one in [I]nature[/I], [B][COLOR=Red]one in all the [I]attributes[/I] of [I]Godhead[/I], and one in all the [I]operations[/I] of those [I]attributes[/I][/COLOR][/B]: and so it is evident the Jews understood him. [SIZE=3]Clarke, A. (1999). [I]Clarke's Commentary: John[/I] (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Clarke's Commentaries (Jn 10:30). Albany, OR: Ages Software. [/SIZE][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]5 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][LEFT]The enormity of the statement, [B]“I and the Father are one,”[/B] within the context of the Gospel of John is difficult to overstate. There are several reasons for this. First, this is a type of “I am” statement for Jesus, this time “we are.” There is a continued reference to the divine name of Jehovah God, I AM (see comments on 8:58). Second, there is a further divine claim in obvious allusion to the famous [I][FONT=Charis SIL]Shema[/FONT][/I] of Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” This was the monotheistic bedrock of the Jewish religion, that there was only one God. Yet Jesus has now included himself in this monotheistic confession. He does not mean that he has achieved some type of mystical unity with God that might be more at home with Hinduism. He is speaking of the very essence of his relationship with the Father, that there is a sameness about them. The theological math here is that 1 + 1 = 1 (cf. 1:1). And yet a third element in this should be noted. Jesus does not say, “I am the Father.” Although he makes a mighty claim here, he continues to maintain a certain level of distinction between the Father and himself. [SIZE=3]Bryant, B. H., & Krause, M. S. (1998). [I]John[/I]. The College Press NIV commentary (Jn 10:30). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co. [/SIZE][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]6 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][LEFT] [I]one.[/I] The Greek is neuter—“one thing,” not “one person.” [B][COLOR=Red]The two are one in essence or nature[/COLOR][/B], but they are not identical persons. This great truth is what warrants Jesus’ “I am” declarations (see 8:24, 28, 58 and note on 6:35; see also 17:21–22). [SIZE=3]Hoeber, R. G. (1997, c1986). [I]Concordia self-study Bible[/I]. "Lutheran edition of the NIV study Bible" --Foreword. (electronic ed.) (Jn 10:30). St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House. [/SIZE][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]7 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][LEFT]The meaning is: no one can snatch them out of the hand of My Father, nor, therefore, out of Mine, since, “[I]the Father and I are one[/I],” possessing the same Omnipotent [COLOR=Red][B]power[/B][/COLOR], the same identical [COLOR=Red][B]Divine nature[/B][/COLOR], the same Divine will. The reasoning here requires, that our Lord should speak of [COLOR=Red][B]unity of [I]power[/I][/B][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=Red]and [I]nature[/I][/COLOR][/B]. “[I]One[/I],” denotes [COLOR=Red][U][B]unity of nature[/B][/U][/COLOR]. “[I]Are[/I],” distinction of persons (St. Augustine, Oratio de Hæres). In answering, He declares more than they asked, viz., that He was not only the Messias, such as they fancied in their minds, but [B][COLOR=Red]even Go[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]d[/COLOR][/B]. [SIZE=3]MacEvilly, J. (1902). [I]An Exposition of the Gospel of St. John[/I] (213). Dublin; New York: M. H. Gill & Son; Benziger Brothers.[/SIZE] [/LEFT] [/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]8 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [LEFT]“[SIZE=4]I and the Father” preserves the separate individuality of the two Persons in the Godhead; [/SIZE][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][B]the word “one”[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=4] ([URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1"]GK[/URL] 1651) [/SIZE][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][B]asserts unity of nature or equality[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=4] (cf. 1Co 3:8). The Jews were quick to apprehend this statement and reacted by preparing to stone Jesus for blasphemy because he, a man, had asserted that [B][COLOR=Red]he was one with God[/COLOR][/B]. For them Jesus’ language did not mean simply agreement of thought or purpose but carried a ****physical [/SIZE][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][B]implication of deity[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=4]. [/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Barker, K. L. (1994). [I]Expositor's Bible Commentary (Abridged)[/I] (332). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House. [/SIZE][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]10 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][LEFT]Ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ Πατὴρ ἓν ἐσμεν, [I]I and the Father are one[/I]) [I]One[/I], [COLOR=Red][U][B]not[/B][/U][/COLOR] merely in agreement of will, [B][COLOR=Red]but in unity of power, and so of nature[/COLOR][/B]: for omnipotence is an attribute of the nature [of God]; and His discourse is of the unity of the Father and the Son. In these words of Jesus, the Jews, blind as they were, saw more meaning than Antitrinitarians see in the present day. If the Jews had supposed that Jesus wishes merely to be accounted as a divine man, and not as the Son of God, [COLOR=Red][B]who is as truly God[/B][/COLOR] as sons of men are men, they would not have said, [I]whereas Thou art a man, [B]thou makest Thyself God[/B][/I] [ver. 33]; nor would they have arraigned Him for blasphemy. By the expression, [I]we are[/I], Sabellius is refuted:[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn1"]2[/URL] by the word, [I]one[/I], Arius is refuted;[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn2"]3[/URL] see ver. 33, 36, 38, “The Father is in Me, and I in Him.” Comp. the close of ver. 29 with that of 28.[URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftn3"]4[/URL] Especially also the first person of the plural number has a pre-eminent signification, as applied to the Son and Father; Jesus seldom uses it of Himself and men. [URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref1"]2 [/URL]Who denied the distinctness of the persons. “[I]I[/I] and [I]the Father[/I] are.”—E. and T. [URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref2"]3 [/URL]Who denied the divinity of the Son.—E. and T. [URL="http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/#_ftnref3"]4 [/URL]“Neither shall any man pluck them out of [I]My[/I] hand,”—“No man is able to pluck them out of [I]My Father’s[/I] hand:” therefore the Father and Jesus are one.—E. and T. [SIZE=3]Bengel, J. A. (1860). [I]Gnomon of the New Testament, Volume 2[/I] (385). Edinburgh: T&T Clark. [/SIZE][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black][FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][CENTER][B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Black][COLOR=Blue]..( [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]13 [COLOR=Blue])[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue].. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [LEFT] [LEFT][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black]One (ἕν). The [I]neuter[/I], not the [I]masculine[/I] [/COLOR][/SIZE][FONT=Gentium][COLOR=Black][SIZE=4]εἷς[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][SIZE=4][COLOR=Black], [I]one person[/I]. It implies[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=Red]unity of [/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=Red][I]essence[/I][/COLOR][/B], [B][COLOR=Red]not merely of [/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=Red][I]will[/I][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=Black]or of [I]power[/I].[/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT] [SIZE=3][COLOR=Black]Vincent, M. R. (2002). [I]Word studies in the New Testament[/I] (2:197). Bellingham.[/COLOR][/SIZE] [/LEFT] [/LEFT] [/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [/LEFT] [/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [/CENTER] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][RIGHT]وعلى رأي عادل إمام، بتحطوا نفسكوا في مواقف بايخا[B][COLOR=Red]اااااااااااااا[/COLOR][/B]ة :99: [/RIGHT] [/LEFT] [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]

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